S4: Athiests are our friends act (failed)

[Wisconsin+17]

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Then it's not a scientific theory. Empirical theories are required to be falsifiable, and they must make testable predictions. Evolution does neither.

[JustinTimeCuber]

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Then it's not a scientific theory. Empirical theories are required to be falsifiable, and they must make testable predictions. Evolution does neither.

Then there can't be any scientific theories about biology in general because biology is never exact.

[diptheriadan]

I'm not arguing for or against banning, I'm arguing that teachers will just find a way around it.

[Wisconsin+17]

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Quite false. Genetics works and can make testable predictions regarding inheritance.

[fhtagn]

Why outright ban the concept? I can see how using your argument can apply to not teaching it in science classes, but would you be fine with allowing it in history courses? Flat earth theory is still taught in history, but is not something taught in science.

[fhtagn]

Also why make this something a concern that regional legislature takes on? Wouldn't you say it is something that would be best left to the school districts to decide?

[Wisconsin+17]

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First off, I want to amend this to make it a local option rather than an outright ban.

Secondly, I think it's more appropriate for college level rather than for secondary level.

[JustinTimeCuber]

Now that this has been debated extensively, I call the question on passage.

[Wisconsin+17]

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I haven't even proposed the amended bill.

[Wisconsin+17]

Bill 4 is hereby amended as following:

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[JustinTimeCuber]

I think it's important to have standards for education so that Alabama kids get the same education as Maryland kids. Both the Theory of Evolution and climate science, ESPECIALLY climate science, are very important things to understand. Let's not vote away Southern children's RIGHT to a factual curriculum in the science classroom. If we pass this law, many Southern school districts will deprive their pupils of that right.

[Wisconsin+17]

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Sure, and the people of Alabama and the people in Maryland should get to make those decisions.

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Nonsense. Neither are core parts of the curriculum at the secondary level.

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I just checked the constitution, there's no requirement that either be taught in southern schools.

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No such right exists. You might as well assert that one has a right to root beer slurpees at 7-11.

[JustinTimeCuber]

Sure, and the people of Alabama and the people in Maryland should get to make those decisions.
So if the voting population in one state wants to force their kids to learn about the jigglypuff in space or something, then that's okay?
Nonsense. Neither are core parts of the curriculum at the secondary level. Climate change is a planetary crisis that people deserve to know the facts about.
I just checked the constitution, there's no requirement that either be taught in southern schools. You don't think people have a right to learn about important things like climate change in school?
No such right exists. You might as well assert that one has a right to root beer slurpees at 7-11. Again, Ben being anti-intelligence. "You don't have a right to education, that's like asserting that one has a right to root beer slurpees." *facepalm*

[Wisconsin+17]

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If you're talking about Christ, I don't have an issue with a school district choosing to teach Christianity in their public schools.

Why do you have an issue with that, JTC?

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Cool beans. It's still not a core part of the secondary curriculum.

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Given that I am a teacher...

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That wasn't your assertion. Your assertion is that there was a right to learn evolution in secondary school. Last I checked, the constitution of the South does not say so.

I would even argue that you don't even have a right to an education.

[JustinTimeCuber]

If you're talking about Christ, I don't have an issue with a school district choosing to teach Christianity in their public schools.

Why do you have an issue with that, JTC? I don't want my tax dollars to go to indoctrinating kids into a religion I don't believe in. Would you be fine with a district teaching Islam, or Buddhism, or Pastafarianism.

Cool beans. It's still not a core part of the secondary curriculum. It's certainly a core part of the curriculum, and all kids deserve to be taught what's happening to THEIR planet.

That wasn't your assertion. Your assertion is that there was a right to learn evolution in secondary school. Last I checked, the constitution of the South does not say so.  I said that it is my view that children have the right to learn important facts about things such as the origin of species. That's not a constitutional right, but it's certainly a moral obligation. Not all rights come from the Constitution.

I would even argue that you don't even have a right to an education. Then I'd say you ARE anti-intelligence; why should poor kids who can't pay not be allowed to go to school? Don't you support equal opportunity?

[Wisconsin+17]

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Imagine how I feel about evolution then?

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Uh, no it's not a core part of the secondary curriculum. Sorry.

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Good for you that you feel so. However we're still constrained by what the constitution says. If it's not in the constitution you don't have a right to it.

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Why should schools be required to charge money? I have worked for a private school for years that provides free tuition to students who are unable to pay. We have donors who are very happy to help us educate children.

[JustinTimeCuber]

1. Tough, because evolution is science and religion isn't.
2. That's just, like, your opinion, man.
3. The Constitution isn't a moral code, it's a governmental code.
4. Many children wouldn't have that opportunity.

[Wisconsin+17]

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Does evolution make falsifiable predictions? If so, what predictions does it make?

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As a secondary school teacher, no it's not 'just my opinion'.

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The constitution specifies what is and isn't a right. There is no right to climate change education. Just as there isn't a right to root beer slurpees. Which is a travesty!

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Sure they do. Nothing stopping parishes across the country from doing what we do. It would help if we had vouchers, as we are saving the system quite a bit of money. Our per student costs are around 2k vs 10k for public schools. Plus we do better than they do.

[JustinTimeCuber]

1. I'll admit that evolution is more about "why" than "what" but why does that mean we shouldn't teach it?
2. So your opinion is automatically correct because you're a teacher?
3. Your brain probably wins mental gymnastics tournaments.
4. Vouchers = bad because you're directing public money towards schools which could teach religion as fact.

[Wisconsin+17]

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Your argument is that school should teach only scientific theories. I would actually argue that religion is a valid topic for any secondary school system, particularly history. We cannot understand history unless we also understand religion and the motivations of those in the past.

Two, if evolution isn't a scientific theory then it doesn't belong in a biology class.

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Given that I teach at these levels in the South, yes, my opinion on this matter is correct. It's not a core part of the biology 12 curriculum, at least in Texas.

Perhaps that's different in Virginia, but I see no evidence of such.

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Aww, thank you.

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Why would it be a bad thing, when the system could educate 4x as many students for the same price and improve the average test scores?

[JustinTimeCuber]

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Your argument is that school should teach only scientific theories. I would actually argue that religion is a valid topic for any secondary school system, particularly history. We cannot understand history unless we also understand religion and the motivations of those in the past. I'm fine with teaching ABOUT religion, but not with teaching it as fact.

Two, if evolution isn't a scientific theory then it doesn't belong in a biology class. Evolution IS a scientific theory.

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Given that I teach at these levels in the South, yes, my opinion on this matter is correct. It's not a core part of the biology 12 curriculum, at least in Texas. Why are we singling out evolution and climate change here to make local options? Seems a little fishy, given that generally the far-right-wing believes neither to be true (even though they are)

Perhaps that's different in Virginia, but I see no evidence of such.

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Aww, thank you.

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Why would it be a bad thing, when the system could educate 4x as many students for the same price and improve the average test scores? 1. Can you give me more general statistics on the cost of private schools vs public schools, and provide evidence? 2. I'm not willing to allow any public funds go to religious indoctrination, and I'm sure you wouldn't want your tax dollars teaching people that there ISN'T a god either.

[Wisconsin+17]

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Great question.

Because neither is a proven scientific theory.

Climate change proponents like Gore made erroneous predictions of the future indicating that whatever you may believe about the theory, the theory is flat out wrong.

[Wisconsin+17]

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I'd be happy to but this is not the thread for it.

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Not only am I required to pay taxes for a school system that I can't teach at, the families with students that I teach have to pay taxes for that same school system, and pay for private education out of their own pocket.

Vouchers rectify that unfairness.

[JustinTimeCuber]

Climate Change

Evolution (see AAAS scientists)


You are not smarter about science than 97% of scientists.

[Wisconsin+17]

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97 percent of physicists once believed in the Aether.

Consensus is not the same as truth.