Washington state's marijuana laws keep getting more sane

[Sbane]

I am a little wary of completely legalizing these highly addictive drugs. Maybe they should only be available in certain stores where we can also counsel them on the harm they are causing themselves and inform them of the resources available to them to kick their habit. And most importantly, not be judgmental about it.

Marijuana is a soft drug. It is not the in the league of heroin, meth and cocaine to a lesser extent.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Sbane, while addiction is not good, there does not seem to be any good evidence that treating it as a criminal problem instead of a medical problem is more helpful to the addict, and treating drug use as a crime definitely causes problems by encouraging violent crime that occurs as part of illicit trafficking in the substances. That's why in determining which drugs to legalize first, I pay little attention to whether the drug is soft or hard, but mainly whether the drug has an agricultural source that makes possible trafficking that can destabilize societies.  So I'd begin legalization with the raw materials and refined products of the following five natural five: magic mushrooms, peyote, marijuana, coca, and opium poppy. There are some others such as khat that should also be legalized on this basis, but they don't see much use here and would likely see even less if the above were legalized. Plus each one that is legalized will need a taxation and control structure put in place to keep the harm they cause to a minimum and to keep them from minors.

[Napoleon]

We need to stop imprisoning people for drug violations. I am not just talking about Marijuana, but any simple drug possession. Those people need help, not prison. Of course the prison industry won't like that.

why do people in possession of drugs "need help"?

People addicted to Heroin, Meth and Nicotine don't need help?

They need help getting the police off their backs.

Yeah seriously. And while I understand heroin and meth addictions lead to problems with crime and all that, nicotine, really? No one has been shot over a cigarette. I don't know if I'd support complete legalization but decriminalization is a minimum.

[© tweed]

Sbane, while addiction is not good, there does not seem to be any good evidence that treating it as a criminal problem instead of a medical problem is more helpful to the addict,

there is also scant evidence that medical 'treatment' of addiction, particularly of the coerced type, is of any use beyond the 5%ish natural remission rate.

[Napoleon]

Sbane you should read this book.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Sbane, while addiction is not good, there does not seem to be any good evidence that treating it as a criminal problem instead of a medical problem is more helpful to the addict,

there is also scant evidence that medical 'treatment' of addiction, particularly of the coerced type, is of any use beyond the 5%ish natural remission rate.

I'm not arguing for forced treatment. Indeed, for many addicts, simply letting them self-medicate is the best policy.

[Badger]

I'm always amazed at the liberals who say: Carbon emissions?? No! Those have far too negative an impact on society! Asbestos! My God think of the health impacts on children!! Fracking chemicals?!?!? What kind of moral compass do you have? The effects on society are well measured and grossly negative warranting their banning!!!


Heroin, cocaine, and methamphetamine? Great! Allow the free market to determine their their detrimental societal effects!

[Sbane]

Sbane, while addiction is not good, there does not seem to be any good evidence that treating it as a criminal problem instead of a medical problem is more helpful to the addict, and treating drug use as a crime definitely causes problems by encouraging violent crime that occurs as part of illicit trafficking in the substances. That's why in determining which drugs to legalize first, I pay little attention to whether the drug is soft or hard, but mainly whether the drug has an agricultural source that makes possible trafficking that can destabilize societies.  So I'd begin legalization with the raw materials and refined products of the following five natural five: magic mushrooms, peyote, marijuana, coca, and opium poppy. There are some others such as khat that should also be legalized on this basis, but they don't see much use here and would likely see even less if the above were legalized. Plus each one that is legalized will need a taxation and control structure put in place to keep the harm they cause to a minimum and to keep them from minors.

I agree with this too. Keeping the supply chain illegal doesn't solve any of the criminal problems related to drugs. Still, people who are heavily addicted to heroin and other destructive drugs need help, so just selling it to them without any restrictions would not be right. The clinics they had (have?) in Vancouver that give heroin addicts their fix but help them if they accept it is what should be done.

[Napoleon]

I'm always amazed at the liberals who say: Carbon emissions?? No! Those have far too negative an impact on society! Asbestos! My God think of the health impacts on children!! Fracking chemicals?!?!? What kind of moral compass do you have? The effects on society are well measured and grossly negative warranting their banning!!!


Heroin, cocaine, and methamphetamine? Great! Allow the free market to determine their their detrimental societal effects!

I don't see the contradiction. Drug use is first and foremost a personal choice. I don't think people actively try to find asbestos and breathe in particles. Has prohibition worked for those drugs or has it possibly made the problem worse? If we didn't treat addicts like criminals, we wouldn't have the criminals that profit from the addicts. It has nothing to do with the free market and everything to do with minimizing those societal effects and reducing it as much as possible to a personal level for a personal choice so that other citizens don't have to deal with the effects of drug use by others. Our CO2 policies haven't caused mass urban decay.

If you live in a suburb it might be easy to say that but if you live in a city where you see these problems everyday, you are driven to want to resolve them. I care about the health of others. Yeah, I smoke cigarettes (not heavily) but I would support the law Connecticut is considering that prohibits smoking with children in the car because they aren't making the choice to be around it. And I'm not choosing to have my air and water polluted by others so I'm happy to see the government take steps to correct that. I wouldn't shed a single tear if someone wanted to add pollutants to a bottle of water and drink since that doesn't affect me. Not that anyone would actually do that besides Governor Hickenlooper.

[Sbane]

Sbane you should read this book.

Of course people will use mind altering substances. Alcohol and Marijuana are mild altering substances, and people should be allowed to indulge in them in their free time. I just don't think it is as easy to function if you are hooked on heavily addictive drugs like Heroin and Meth. Heroin is purified from Opium. While people have been smoking Opium for a long time now, heroin is a relatively new drug. Same with Cocaine. Coca leaves have been used for a long time now, but purified cocaine from it, not so much. And while I completely disagree with the greater sentencing for crack, it is easy to understand why crack is more destructive. It gives you a greater and cheaper high, leading to more chance of addiction. Obviously there are a lot of people addicted to Marijuana and Alcohol as well, but it's much easier to be a functional stoner or alcoholic than a meth head or opiate addict.

[Napoleon]

Sbane you should read this book.

Of course people will use mind altering substances. Alcohol and Marijuana are mild altering substances, and people should be allowed to indulge in them in their free time. I just don't think it is as easy to function if you are hooked on heavily addictive drugs like Heroin and Meth. Heroin is purified from Opium. While people have been smoking Opium for a long time now, heroin is a relatively new drug. Same with Cocaine. Coca leaves have been used for a long time now, but purified cocaine from it, not so much. And while I completely disagree with the greater sentencing for crack, it is easy to understand why crack is more destructive. It gives you a greater and cheaper high, leading to more chance of addiction. Obviously there are a lot of people addicted to Marijuana and Alcohol as well, but it's much easier to be a functional stoner or alcoholic than a meth head or opiate addict.

I hope you're not subscribing to the fallacy that drug use=drug abuse. I mean I certianly don't advocate for people using hard drugs and throwing their life away but if people are experimenting a little bit then I'm not going to tell them they can't. I think we should educate people on the risks, without using misleading propaganda (that only serves to diminish the value of the education). Part of the problem is we tell kids how horrible marijuana is and they realize when they're older that it's no big deal at all and figure "well, if they lied about weed, they probably lied about this too". America has a lot of fundamental problems when it comes to illicit drugs and prescription drugs and addiction treatment and mental health. It's really weird that we still don't have the motivation to confront these problems in a way that mgiht lead to change.

[Sbane]

Sbane you should read this book.

Of course people will use mind altering substances. Alcohol and Marijuana are mild altering substances, and people should be allowed to indulge in them in their free time. I just don't think it is as easy to function if you are hooked on heavily addictive drugs like Heroin and Meth. Heroin is purified from Opium. While people have been smoking Opium for a long time now, heroin is a relatively new drug. Same with Cocaine. Coca leaves have been used for a long time now, but purified cocaine from it, not so much. And while I completely disagree with the greater sentencing for crack, it is easy to understand why crack is more destructive. It gives you a greater and cheaper high, leading to more chance of addiction. Obviously there are a lot of people addicted to Marijuana and Alcohol as well, but it's much easier to be a functional stoner or alcoholic than a meth head or opiate addict.

I hope you're not subscribing to the fallacy that drug use=drug abuse. I mean I certianly don't advocate for people using hard drugs and throwing their life away but if people are experimenting a little bit then I'm not going to tell them they can't. I think we should educate people on the risks, without using misleading propaganda (that only serves to diminish the value of the education). Part of the problem is we tell kids how horrible marijuana is and they realize when they're older that it's no big deal at all and figure "well, if they lied about weed, they probably lied about this too". America has a lot of fundamental problems when it comes to illicit drugs and prescription drugs and addiction treatment and mental health. It's really weird that we still don't have the motivation to confront these problems in a way that mgiht lead to change.

I completely agree with this. We should be honest with people. If my proposal is carried out, and people want to head to their local opium den to try some out one time, that is fine with me. But they should be educated about it's addictive potential and hopefully they will make it a one time thing. I personally know of people who moved on to harder drugs because they were lied to about Marijuana and its effects. I don't want to repeat that mistake with counseling about any drug. It should all be fact based and based on evidence and reason.

[© tweed]

Of course people will use mind altering substances. Alcohol and Marijuana are mild altering substances, and people should be allowed to indulge in them in their free time. I just don't think it is as easy to function if you are hooked on heavily addictive drugs like Heroin and Meth.

this is mostly just prejudice.  there are plenty of heroin and cocaine addicts sheltered within middle-class and above.  it is no harder to be a 'functional' alcohol cocaine addict than it is an alcohol addict, and the only reason why it would be are due to the consequences of legal prohibition.

[Badger]

Of course people will use mind altering substances. Alcohol and Marijuana are mild altering substances, and people should be allowed to indulge in them in their free time. I just don't think it is as easy to function if you are hooked on heavily addictive drugs like Heroin and Meth.

this is mostly just prejudice.  there are plenty of heroin and cocaine addicts sheltered within middle-class and above.  it is no harder to be a 'functional' alcohol cocaine addict than it is an alcohol addict, and the only reason why it would be are due to the consequences of legal prohibition.

So, Tweed, what's your drug of choice? Heroin?

[Sbane]

Of course people will use mind altering substances. Alcohol and Marijuana are mild altering substances, and people should be allowed to indulge in them in their free time. I just don't think it is as easy to function if you are hooked on heavily addictive drugs like Heroin and Meth.

this is mostly just prejudice.  there are plenty of heroin and cocaine addicts sheltered within middle-class and above.  it is no harder to be a 'functional' alcohol cocaine addict than it is an alcohol addict, and the only reason why it would be are due to the consequences of legal prohibition.

Yes, Cocaine is in a bit of a gray area I think. Heroin is extremely addictive though.

[angus]

this is mostly just prejudice. 

??!

every post by every poster is mostly just prejudice.  let's at least be honest in this forum.

[© tweed]

Of course people will use mind altering substances. Alcohol and Marijuana are mild altering substances, and people should be allowed to indulge in them in their free time. I just don't think it is as easy to function if you are hooked on heavily addictive drugs like Heroin and Meth.

this is mostly just prejudice.  there are plenty of heroin and cocaine addicts sheltered within middle-class and above.  it is no harder to be a 'functional' alcohol cocaine addict than it is an alcohol addict, and the only reason why it would be are due to the consequences of legal prohibition.

So, Tweed, what's your drug of choice? Heroin?

alcohol most of my life, marijuana for part of it, supplemented with daily caffeine and nicotine.  opiates I liked but (thankfully) never sought nor developed a habit.  why do you ask, Badger?

[© tweed]

Of course people will use mind altering substances. Alcohol and Marijuana are mild altering substances, and people should be allowed to indulge in them in their free time. I just don't think it is as easy to function if you are hooked on heavily addictive drugs like Heroin and Meth.

this is mostly just prejudice.  there are plenty of heroin and cocaine addicts sheltered within middle-class and above.  it is no harder to be a 'functional' alcohol cocaine addict than it is an alcohol addict, and the only reason why it would be are due to the consequences of legal prohibition.

Yes, Cocaine is in a bit of a gray area I think. Heroin is extremely addictive though.

drugs have many different properties.  capacity to produce harm and the capacity to form habit do not necessarily align.  nicotine is more-or-less harmless in the short and medium-term but is extremely habit-forming.. addictivity (if you will) and harmfulness are separate properties.

[emailking]

The enthusiasm for prison shown here by the subjects of a penal society is hardly surprising.

Surely you people realize there are other solutions, no?

None that I'm interested in. I think violent people should be locked up so I don't have to deal with them.

[© tweed]

The enthusiasm for prison shown here by the subjects of a penal society is hardly surprising.

Surely you people realize there are other solutions, no?

None that I'm interested in. I think violent people should be locked up so I don't have to deal with them.

locking someone up is a violent act -- so the circle is closed.

[Sbane]

Of course people will use mind altering substances. Alcohol and Marijuana are mild altering substances, and people should be allowed to indulge in them in their free time. I just don't think it is as easy to function if you are hooked on heavily addictive drugs like Heroin and Meth.

this is mostly just prejudice.  there are plenty of heroin and cocaine addicts sheltered within middle-class and above.  it is no harder to be a 'functional' alcohol cocaine addict than it is an alcohol addict, and the only reason why it would be are due to the consequences of legal prohibition.

Yes, Cocaine is in a bit of a gray area I think. Heroin is extremely addictive though.

drugs have many different properties.  capacity to produce harm and the capacity to form habit do not necessarily align.  nicotine is more-or-less harmless in the short and medium-term but is extremely habit-forming.. addictivity (if you will) and harmfulness are separate properties.

Yes, and on both those criteria, Heroin is horrible.

[© tweed]

perhaps the scariest public health drawback of heroin is the transmission of HIV through needles, which is easily eradicated by clean-needle exchange or, better-yet, safe-injection sites.  another of the scariest drawbacks is the accidental overdose, which again could be eliminated by safe-injection or legalization w/proper labeling (use no more than x amount if you weigh <110lbs, 1.2x if you weigh <130lbs, etc.)