The Present Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread

[MalaspinaGold]

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/middle-east-unrest/israel-launches-ground-operation-gaza-strip-n158646
Ground attacks begin.

[MalaspinaGold]

Considering the shifting political demographics on each side, I highly doubt peace is a viable option for some decades.

[MalaspinaGold]

http://forward.com/articles/202383/tel-aviv-is-under-red-alert-in-many-ways/

On the outbreak of violence against the Israeli left-wing.

Personally, I think this s the most dangerous thing to come out of this whole mess, and it will have the most far-reaching consequences.

[MalaspinaGold]

Anyone wondering when snowstalker is going to join the legion of brave freedom fighters defending Gaza from the vile, imperialist zionist war machine?

I hope it's soon, so he can do stuff other than post inane comics on atlas.

[MalaspinaGold]

Anyone wondering when snowstalker is going to join the legion of brave freedom fighters defending Gaza from the vile, imperialist zionist war machine?

I hope it's soon, so he can do stuff other than post inane comics on atlas.

That's an impressive argument, you must be proud. I forgot that people literally have to go and fight in warzones in order to express an opinion on anything that doesn't currently personally affect them. (Though it is funny that your sarcastic description of Israel is actually a perfectly accurate description of the state).

oakvale, I'm pretty sure you didn't actually read my post. Because if you had read my post, you would have seen that I made it abundantly clear that I DON'T want snowstalker to "prove his words" or any hogwash of the sort, I want him (and certain other pro-Israel posters) to stop turning this topic into a cesspool of trollbait, as he did for the Ukraine thread, and countless others.

As for your second point, it depends what you mean by state. If by state you mean the current Israeli government, then yes, that is an accurate description I might even add a few qualifiers (Machiavellian, psychotic, borderline fascist, etc.) However, if you were referring (as I was) to the state of Israel, then that is as rational as saying America is bloodthirsty, idiotic, and evil because it elected George W. Bush twice. However, True Leftists like Snowstalker have this highly irritating habit of blending the two together.

What Snowstalker does not seem to understand, is that it is not Gaza firing rockets at Israel, but Hamas. And Hamas does what s good for Hamas, not Gaza. I guess what I'm saying is this: either approach this as a confrontation between two dangerous, nationalistic governments, one de jure and the other de facto, or as a confrontation between two somewhat belligerent peoples, who more or less want to stay out of each other's lives.Do not use the murderous tactics of the Likud government to smear the entire Israeli state, and do not use the bloody and unjust sacrifice of hundreds of Palestinian lives to whitewash what is ultimately a self-serving terrorist organization.

And one more thing: I think the naive Westerner who "looked at a couple of websites" is the perfect characterization of Snowstalker himself, as the last time we had a rocket exchange was back in 2011-2012, when Snowstalker was a red avatar, and as we all know, all red avatars are AIPAC puppets.

And finally, I have two questions:
1) Why is Hamas firing rockets if they know the rockets are useless against Iron Dome?
2) Why did Hamas reject the ceasefire

FTR: I think Israel is 98% to blame for the current crisis, and 80% to blame for the long-term crisis."

[MalaspinaGold]

In other news, this may be one of the stupidest things I have read on the Crisis
http://forward.com/articles/201972/gaza-war-unintended-nope-hamas-is-sworn-to-destro/

[MalaspinaGold]

Don't forget Tunisia

[MalaspinaGold]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/26/gaza-rockets-truce-extension_n_5623628.html?1406401927&utm_hp_ref=world

Ceasefire ends.

[MalaspinaGold]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/03/israel-withdraws-troops-gaza_n_5645981.html#774_more-on-the-announcement-about-hadar-goldin
Israel withdrawing.
About darn time.

[MalaspinaGold]

le sigh

I don't think anyone actually denied it...

IndyTX, you're probably more familiar with the Palestinian political situation than I am; would it be an accurate assessment to say that cutdown in aid to Gaza, because it makes Hamas the only group providing some sort of social welfare, strengthens Hamas's popularity? I really don't know.

[MalaspinaGold]

I'm pretty sure if Goldfield were to link a comparable article from Israel Hayom or some comparable entity you would be the first to be scream bloody bias. Just throwing that out there.

Aside from that, of course dead0man is for the most part wrong but being anti-Netanyahu does not require one to be a Hamas shill.

[MalaspinaGold]

I'm pretty sure if Goldfield were to link a comparable article from Israel Hayom or some comparable entity you would be the first to be scream bloody bias. Just throwing that out there.

EI is really no more biased than the BBC or CNN or NBC.

For the record I do not approve of many of Hamas's military tactics (especially the criminal use of child soldiers) and do not support them within a governing context in Gaza or in a hypothetical liberated Palestine. However, I support Hamas within the context of the national liberation struggle.

Sure, and FOX is no more biased as BBC/CNN/NBC (not to say the American networks have no pro-Israel bias, just that they are being as incompetent as usual.) It's actually really funny, because a friend from my synagogue was telling me I need to watch Hannity to really understand what's going on in Gaza, as the major networks were all pro-Palestinian. It's really frustrating at times.

And okay, here's the thing: if Israel agreed to some secular state (let's call it Canaan to avoid offending anybody), do you really think they are going to step aside and allow that to happen? Hamas IS a member party of the Muslim Brotherhood after all. And if they emerge the dominant party in Canaan, they will have the power to become an Islamic state. So I just want you to be REALLY sure you understand that if Hamas wins the ground game, they will also win the political game. This is why Hamas must lose, as well as Likud-Beiteinu and Habayit Hayehudi on the Israeli side. And the thing is, Hamas will keep winning  Palestinian elections, and Likud, and in the future Habayit Hayehudi will win Israeli elections, if both sides continue giving the other side reason to want to eliminate them. Ironically, the best path to a one-state solution might well be a two-state solution, where the two sides stay out of each other's business long enough to cool down enough for real talks at reunification. Otherwise, this is basically going to turn into another Syria, Iraq, Zimbabwe.

dead0man, yes, I feel you know most of the facts about the grand mess, but yes, you draw the long conclusions. To say that Israel just wants peace is silly, when, for one thing, Netanyahu sabotaged talks in order to give the go ahead to more settlements. And yes, there are important members of the current coalition, most importantly Naftali Bennett, who essentially want for the Palestinians to leave the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Unfortunately, this gives Hamas a very easy reason to continue to arm.

[MalaspinaGold]

Hamas isn't actually that popular in Gaza due to their domestic incompetence, and without Israeli aggression as a scapegoat, they're likely to lose support among Palestinians (though it's unlikely that that support will go to a corrupt and collaborationist group like Fatah). Similarly, the reason Israel isn't just storming in and deposing Hamas is because of how great of a scapegoat it is for Israel's brutality in the Gaza Strip. It's also worth mentioning how broad "Islamism" is--the Muslim Brotherhood is conservative and authoritarian but not extremist like the (pretty much dead) Al-Qaeda and certainly nothing like ISIS.

To the contrary, the reason that Hamas wins elections in Gaza I believe is because they are the only group with what even comes close to a social welfare service, something Fatah never even bothered to try to do. It's interesting to note that only 15-20% of Hamas's budget goes to military activities, while most of the rest goes to things like soup kitchens, schools, and healthcare. If another group, say Fatah or maybe even Israel were to establish a similar welfare system, and Israel would stop being so trigger-happy, Hamas's would probably never win another election anywhere.

Again, keep in mind, that whatever you think of the Muslim Brotherhood, it's official policy is to set up Islamic states, NOT secular ones. Even the moderate Ennahda in Tunisia set up an Islamic state, albeit one set up similar to Israel. I never said Hamas was anywhere near as nutty as al-Qaeda or ISIS, but that doesn't change matters.

And you are right, Hamas and the Israeli right need each other to survive. Which is why supporting Hamas in the hope of National Liberation or whatnot is silly, because Hamas itself strengthens the Israel security state.

[MalaspinaGold]

There has been an "undeclared" ceasefire agreed upon while talks continue.

Hamas has agreed to let the idea of a seaport go in the truce talks if they can get the PA to monitor the border with Egypt.  Not sure why they think that would be any better, as neither PA nor Egypt desires a re-armed Hamas and pals.  Might be easier to bribe a PA border guard than it would one that was a member of the IDF or the Egyptian Army I guess.

Also, if their (Hamas) demands are not met by Sunday they are going to attack Tel Aviv.  Whatever that means.

Are you so ideological blinded, that you don't get that the major reason that Hamas want the blockade to end, is to be able to develop Gaza, right now the import of cement are limited by Israel at a point, where they need not only to rebuild after the Israel bombing and bombardment of them, but they also need to deal with growing population. Beside that Gaza suffer from chronic lack of energy, which mean that they suffer from daily power outs, and an end to the blockade would also mean that Gazans could work abroad, which would bring much needed capital into Gaza. also at last and not least it would allow Gaza to develop Gaza commercial.

If only that were true.  Hamas has spent many MILLIONS of dollars, using child slave labor, to build tunnels to murder civilians.  If they wanted to improve Gaza they could use that money to make things better instead of trying to murder.  The concrete they do get in doesn't go into fixing sh**t, no it, like their children, go into the tunnels.  I can't understand how ideologically blind a person must be to ignore the evidence.

If Gaza grows up and stops the violence and Israel maintains the blockade, I'll be next to you at the rallies against them.

THAT is false. Like I said, only 15-20% of Hamas's budget goes to military operations.

http://www.newstatesman.com/books/2007/05/hamas-palestinian-israel

[MalaspinaGold]

Netanyahu has recalled the Israeli delegation.

Mind-numbingly stupid thing to do, especially considering it's likely that Hamas wasn't the group that shot the rockets (more likely PRC or one of the Jihadi groups.

[MalaspinaGold]

http://blogs.forward.com/jj-goldberg/204268/an-israeli-novelists-cry-for-peace-a-rabbis-reply/?
There are two articles here: one is a transcript of a speech by David Grossman at a Peace rally, calling for a broad coalition against the growing extremism in Israeli politics and society.

The second one is by an Orthodox rabbi, Yuval Sherlow who seems to agree with Grossman's key points, but who argues that Grossman is turning off the Israeli public in some of his metaphors, and is thus digging himself into a deeper hole.

I personally agree with Grossman and his tone, though Sherlow is correct in arguing that it will take Israeli public support to seek a solution.

Also, old interview with a Hadash party member on why a one-state is unworkable
http://newvoices.org/2009/02/12/0036-4/

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