SENATE BILL: Living Wage Act (Law'd) (user search)
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  SENATE BILL: Living Wage Act (Law'd) (search mode)
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Author Topic: SENATE BILL: Living Wage Act (Law'd)  (Read 6414 times)
HagridOfTheDeep
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,755
Canada


Political Matrix
E: -6.19, S: -4.35

« on: April 08, 2013, 11:42:03 AM »

Wouldn't this measure just contribute to inflation more and create a sort of positive feedback cycle?
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HagridOfTheDeep
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,755
Canada


Political Matrix
E: -6.19, S: -4.35

« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2013, 12:46:51 AM »

I'd rather make the work week longer.
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HagridOfTheDeep
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,755
Canada


Political Matrix
E: -6.19, S: -4.35

« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2013, 01:12:30 AM »


Either option does that, but at least making the work week longer would provide a more stable framework for economic growth. Currently, when we talk jobs, we might as well just call them "half-jobs." Since you want us to consider raising the minimum wage in the context of this work week, the implication is that people aren't making a good enough living with the small number of hours. Why not give people more hours instead of disrupting the balance of the economy? We can overvalue minimum wage work all we want, but the market assigns a value to that work relative to every other aspect of the economy—you move the value of the work up, and the value of everything else will follow.

I don't really want to to change any of these things at the moment, but if I had to pick one, yeah—I'd rather lengthen the work week and keep the minimum wage down. Otherwise, we'll only encourage outsourcing and lay-offs.

I'm more in favour of Nix's proposal than anything, but I suppose I just don't see why the situation is so pressing. We're just coming out of a recession at the moment, so yes, people will be struggling more than they may have struggled in the past. But a big change that could see more lay-offs isn't a risk I'm inclined to take in this delicate environment.

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HagridOfTheDeep
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,755
Canada


Political Matrix
E: -6.19, S: -4.35

« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2013, 12:28:41 PM »


The minimum w.age has not been lowered in any region, so the minimum wage no matter where someone lives is at least $12. Explain how this bill would kill jobs.

I think the continuous wage increase will be disproportionately unfair to the kinds of businesses that normally hire minimum wage workers. We've never had a rolling wage before. Small businesses that have a hard enough time catching up with inflation when it comes to existing operating costs will now have to deal with more costs. Sure, maybe the solution is to raise their prices for consumers, but that might negatively impact how well the business is able to compete with multinational corporations. Plus, if these small businesses do raise their prices to consumers, it'll see inflation rise, which, in turn, will require a wage hike.

What you saw in Oregon, which has had its minimum wage tied to the cost of living since 2002, speaks to some of the problems. Restaurant employees particularly suffered: Where in 1996 the average establishment employed 16.4 workers, the average establishment only employed 13.8 workers in 2011. The figures have stayed flat for the rest of the country. Maybe the drop only happened in new restaurants—I don't know. It still hurt the jobs potential, which isn't something I think we should take lightly.

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How is that the case?[/quote]

In comparison to the system that would create a positive feedback loop of inflation, giving people more hours (without forcing employers to pay them for time and a half) would put more money in individuals' pockets. People would be laid off, but the extra money that the remaining folks earned would give them additional purchasing power that those dollars couldn't have unlocked when they were split between two workers. That purchasing power would create the demand for additional jobs elsewhere, and the hours for those jobs would be more sufficient than the hours for jobs under the current system. Tying the minimum wage to inflation might give individuals more money, but only because it will cost more to buy things. Plus, the possibility of lay-offs (or at least reduced growth potential) is still there, and here the employer would have to pay more out of pocket than he or she would if the work week was extended. Paying more out of pocket may be a problem for small businesses if the competitive framework of their industry prevents them from raising their prices in a viable way.

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32 hours is not half a job. I don't know anyone who works 64 hours a week.[/quote]

I guess you missed the hyperbole. Roll Eyes

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Some people aren't making a good enough living for the amount of work they do regardless of hours. They just happen to be paid hourly.[/quote]

Fair enough, but if they're making minimum wage, they're still doing better than the people who are earning minimum wage but only get to work 32 hours a week. Wink

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Because I don't support the sort of anti-family wage slave policy that keeps parents working all week while their kids sit mostly unattended in day care centers. People can and do work more than 32 hours, and they get compensated fairly with over time pay. I'm concerned about those who are at risk of having their lifestyle subject to the whims of a regional government. The poor are not pawns to be used in a political power play at the benefit of the corporations.[/quote]

I'm sorry, but the eight-hour work day is not "wage slave policy." It's a job. If so many people work it already, it can't exactly be too out of the mainstream. Except maybe the employers could hire more people if they weren't forced to pay overtime to these folks who are working what would be considered a normal day anywhere else. In Ontario, overtime pay only kicks in after 44 hours.

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Atlasia hasn't been in a recession. The Atlasian economy has been steadily growing since President Polnut's second term and all throughout my presidency. [/quote]

Yeah, so we're one year out of it. I said we're coming out of a recession. I wasn't a member of Atlasia during the worst of it, but it's my understanding that we did have one. One year out with moderate growth isn't exactly the best of circumstances.

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I agree that a healthy middle class is necessary. Much like the thriving middle class we saw under the Fordist 40-hour work week. Tongue
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HagridOfTheDeep
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,755
Canada


Political Matrix
E: -6.19, S: -4.35

« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2013, 03:58:34 PM »

I was quite liking Senator Napoleon, but it's a real shame that President Napoleon seems to have turned up instead.

If the minimum wage has been formally tied to inflation for years, please point me in that direction. Either way, I'd again point to the example in Oregon rather than to what we may or may not have seen in Atlasia. One example is real life and one example is decided by a human "god-figure." I trust real life.

As for the rest of your response... glad there's not much to address other than insults. Makes my job a bit easier. You call it "disastrous supply-side rhetoric," but I call it common sense.

I should probably comment on this little tangent though:

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For one, if the policy has been in place for over 70 years since the 1930s, I wouldn't necessarily call it a policy that's exclusive to the 1930s. If it didn't work, it would've been canned. The motivations for the 40-hour work week also doesn't really concern me, because things change. Sure, it was designed for a time when it was common for a family to have one breadwinner... I advocate continuing those policies today not so that we can reproduce some social ideal, but to give people more hours and more money without putting destructive stress on entrepreneurs. So, straight up, stop being a smart-ass by trying to dissect my motives. Never—never—did I come close to saying "women should stay in the kitchen," and the leap you're making to put those words in my mouth is offensive. I believe the good part of this world's problems can be solved by empowering women, so this little jab is one thing I'm not going to sit and take.

That said, I'm not going to scoff at the times when we did see such economic prosperity that it was feasible for families to only send one member into the workforce. I don't care if it's the man who stays home or the woman who stays home, but wouldn't it be nice if we could once again see those kinds of economic conditions? Why is it a bad thing to have someone "stay home with the kids?" This idea kind of ties into your jab at Fordism. I'd think you'd prefer Fordism over neoliberalism, but maybe I'm wrong. You said it was important for capitalist societies to have a strong middle class. All I was saying was that the last time we really had a thriving middle class was also under the 40-hour work week.

Anyhow, I'm bowing out of this back-and-forth for the time being. I didn't really offer anything new in this post, so the only possible response I could get would be jeering bait designed to elicit a reaction from me. All I can say is that I hope my peers in this chamber respect me enough not to assume that I'm sitting in some tower plotting the best way to put women back in the kitchen. My God.
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HagridOfTheDeep
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,755
Canada


Political Matrix
E: -6.19, S: -4.35

« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2013, 03:37:31 PM »

Sorry for not coming in here sooner, but I've been pissed off. Tongue

Frankly I don't mind Napoleon's amendment as much as some of the other things I've seen in this thread. My argument was against cost of living increases and inflation increases, because the two are both tied together. One thing I'm still unclear about though is who's been keeping track of the minimum wage since it's been tied to inflation. We're throwing around all these hard even numbers ("$11.50," "$12.00," etc.), but what is the minimum wage actually? Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm a little confuzzled.

Honestly though, I don't really see why the current situation mandates that we take any action on the minimum wage at all. It seems like we're just meddling for the sake of meddling.
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HagridOfTheDeep
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,755
Canada


Political Matrix
E: -6.19, S: -4.35

« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2013, 10:56:15 PM »

Abstain
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