Let's discuss Mormonism.

[Zioneer]

Ok, I have one more question that I find pertinent especially in light of your answer for #9 - do you care whether or not your beliefs are actually true?

I do; I personally believe in my faith, and I see the doctrines as truthful. I just don't dwell overly much on improbability of the events of the Book of Mormon (though again, I do believe in it; like I've said, science is constantly improving, alternate interpretations of scripture are always popping up, so I have hope in the possibility of the Book of Mormon).

I tend to care more about the use of the doctrine and the lessons that it teaches (like the constant condemnation of wealth inequality in the BoM, and the musings on perfection in the Pearl of Great Price).

Were there any prophets between the time of the New Testament and Joseph Smith?

If not, why not?

There were not, but the last two LDS prophets have implied that religiously significant people throughout post-Jesus history have been inspired by God (I think Joan of Arc and Muhammad were the most surprising implications that they pointed out), while not being actual prophets.

The reason that there were no actual prophets was that the priesthood had been lost after the last of the Apostles died (besides John the Apostle and the Three Nephites, but they were commanded to basically just watch the world), and since Jesus wasn't coming back for a while (and neither were any of the Apostles), no priesthood meant no prophets.

As a side note, I'm an outlier, but I feel an affinity with Muslims, as I see our faiths having some similarities.

Is it true that the previous LDS President basically prohibited involvement in "the scene" (which of course he wasn't familiar with no doubt, but I do believe he said something along the lines of that Mormons should not be involved with punk music)? I remember vaguely hearing something about that.

Worth nothing I have never met a Mormon in the scene, just as I've never met a real Catholic in my 10+ years in it, even amongst open Christians (now granted I don't go polling people about their religion at shows or anything but every single person I've ever heard of in the scene that was raised Catholic or Mormon [obviously the former are far more common] has either cut off from them and gone totally non-religious, went to another much more loosely organized form of Christianity, or didn't join another church at all, but still identified as simply Christian but not as Catholic or Mormon.)

If "the scene" you mean drugs and all that, then no, we aren't allowed to be a part of it and LDS leaders strongly discourage it.

If you just mean music, they tend to discourage any music that teaches "negative" themes like violence or whatnot, but it's not strongly enforced and if you don't try and get church-sponsored functions to play your music, you're fine. Heck, I'm openly a Mormon metalhead (though I dislike the sound of death metal), and I've had no problems with my musical taste. It does help that I like "heroic metal" (like some Blind Guardian songs) and Christian power metal. Sadly though, there is no such thing as specifically Mormon metal.

[Zioneer]

What did Joseph Smith think of slavery?

That's a good question, and it even fits into another issue. See, both Missouri and Illinois had large populations of Southerners back in Joseph Smith's time. Very pro-slavery, and from I understand, experimenting with keeping slaves in those states. Naturally, they despised any attempt to weaken the institution of slavery, and saw all Yankees and Englishman as potential abolitionists. Since Yankees and the English were 99% of the LDS Church at that time, you can probably figure out what Illinois and Missouri thought of Smith.

Smith didn't exactly help matters when he insisted on teaching former slaves, though he insisted that he wouldn't teach actual slaves without the consent of their masters. Interestingly enough, a guy named Elijah Abel (an escaped slave) was the first black man who received the LDS priesthood, and he and his descendants even kept it after Brigham Young threw a hissy fit and banned blacks from the priesthood.

Anyway, a large portion of the animosity between the Mormons and non-Mormons was because the non-Mormons were convinced that Smith would slowly take over the state by conversion, and use converted slaves and Native Americans to conquer any dissidents. Yes, it was also because of actions taken by members of the church, but looking through public statements by anti-Mormon figures at that time, they love to talk about "he will baptize the Negros and slaughter us in our beds" (paraphrasing, of course).

Smith's own personal beliefs tended to differ on slavery; Wikipedia says he published a pro-slavery essay in 1836, but it seems his beliefs changed soon after that, because that same year, he baptized and gave the priesthood to Eljiah Abel. He does get a scripture in which it basically says "don't interfere with the bondsmen (slaves) or their masters" but judging from his helping escaped slaves and baptizing freemen and other former slaves, he figured that scripture was of less importance.

Flash forward to 1844 and Joseph Smith's presidential campaign (which was basically a smokescreen to get the attention and thus protection of federal authorities for his church), and one of Smith's platforms is the complete abolition of slavery by 1850, and the compensation of slaveholders through selling public lands. Since as previously mentioned, Illinois had a large pro-slavery population, you can guess their reaction. The anti-Mormon militias grow in power,  the anti-Mormon publications start literally calling for the Mormons to be opposed "with musket and ball", and before you know, Smith panics and orders the destruction of one of the anti-Mormon publications. He is soon imprisoned and killed, and there's a period of leaderlessness in the church, until Brigham Young (who is notably quieter on the subject of slavery) takes over the majority of the Mormons.

[Zioneer]

Are Mormons outside of Utah as strongly Republican as they are in Utah (and Idaho, for that matter)?

Non-Utah Mormons tend to be a bit more moderate than Utah Mormons; Mitt Romney as Governor is a pretty good indicator of that moderate streak. In fact, I would say that most non-Utah Mormons are moderate Republicans, of the Olympia Snowe variety. Still strongly Republican, but not jerks about it (besides California Mormons, who tend to be the kind of people who would have supported Prop 8 without the LDS Church endorsing it). It's mostly a collection of factors and powerful figures (Ezra Taft Benson, Cleon Skousen, Glenn Beck, etc) that cause Utah Mormons to be so solidly right-wing Republicans.

The more interesting subject is that of non-American Mormons. International Mormons tend to be in the distinct mainstream, and even tend to the left on economic issues. I wish I could find statistics, (this is the closest thing I could find, and it's about American Mormons) but with Romney in the American presidential race this year, non-American Mormon political statistics are difficult to look for. But I can tell you that Mexican Mormons have a distinct leftist economic streak, especially when compared to American Mormons. This may be because of the legacy of Emilio Zapata and the Mexican Mormon tradition that Zapata was similar to Helaman, a notable Book of Mormon character.

Are Mormons outside of Utah as strongly Republican as they are in Utah (and Idaho, for that matter)?

Well, the two Nevada Mormons who immediately come to mind for me at least are Harry Reid and Brandon Flowers, and then you have the mostly but not exclusively Democratic Udalls scattered across the West...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are as many Democratic as Republican Mormon Senators right now, aren't there?

For Mormon Democrats, there's currently just Harry Reid and Tom Udall (Mark Udall has never been a practicing Mormon, as his father Mo did not raise him in the LDS Faith). On the Representative side, it's just as depressing: Jim Matheson of Utah (who I dislike vehemently and see as no different from a Republican), and non-voting Eni Faleomavaega from American Samoa. If you count Community of Christ as "Mormon", then Leonard Boswell of Iowa is a Mormon Democrat.

On the Republican side, there's Dean Heller, Mike Crapo, Orrin Hatch, and Mike Lee. Former Senator Gordon Smith of Oregon was a Mormon Republican as well, though a somewhat moderate one. LDS Congressional GOPers are plentiful: Rob Bishop and Jason Chaffetz of Utah, Howard McKeon and Wally Herger of California, Jeff Flake from Arizona (he'll probably become Senator as well), Raul Labrador and Mike Simpson of Idaho.

As a side note, the Mormon online blogosphere (nicknamed the "bloggernacle") is much more liberal than most American Mormons. A few celebrity Mormons are moderate-to-liberal Democrats as well; Ken Jennings (who I think should run for office) is a Democrat, for example. A few members of the LDS leadership (General Authority Larry EchoHawk, and Church Historian Marlin K Jensen and his successor Stephen H Snow, as well as 3-4 Apostles), are  Democrats, but in all but EchoHawk's case, it seems to be a matter of habit rather than a political inclination.

Outside the United States, I can only use Wikipedia's list for LDS politicians. Besides the random Japanese and South Korean LDS politicians, it doesn't seem too surprising. Latin America, the Polynesian nations, and Canada+Scotland have long been areas of strong conversion rates for the LDS Church. Heck, apparently a Tongan princess even converted to Mormonism!

Oh, and the notable liberal political cartoonist pat Bagley used to be Mormon until Prop 8, and still considers himself a "cultural Mormon". So there's that.

Also, every single politician running for Congressional or statewide office in Utah this year is Mormon, whether Republican or Democrat.

[Zioneer]

What's your opinion of the early 20th century practice of deliberately having LDS leaders in different parts of Utah endorse different candidates so the state could be a swing state and receive more attention?

They not only did that, but they literally split congregations down the aisle with regards to political party. They literally said that "okay left side, you're Democrat, and right side you're Republican". Quite a few Utah political families are members of their political party because of that.

But anyway, it seems to me that at first, it was desperately needed; the very good book "Utah: A People's History" (despite the name, it's mostly political neutral and in fact ends its history somewhere in the Reagan years) points out that one of the unspoken conditions given by the Feds for Utah to become a state was to ensure that it wouldn't be a safe state for either party (at the time it was a Democratic territory, as the Republicans were the ones who temporarily dissolved the church and imprisoned church leaders). It makes sense; if not transformed into a swing state, whatever direction Utah took would also be the course that the large Mormon populations in the neighboring states would take. Unfortunately, that hasn't been a strategy that's worked over the years.

It's a total violation of church and state, and once the IRS started getting aggressive about that sort of thing, the LDS Church rightfully stopped, but I don't think at the time it was out of the ordinary. Utah was a fairly poor and rural state that had a much maligned religious minority as it's majority religion (just look at the Reed Smoot hearings and the social alienation that Smoot faced until Theodore Roosevelt came along), so I think it was a useful strategy to ensure Utah was not ignored.

Interestingly enough, this abnormal endorsement practice led Utah to reject Prohibition until a prophet-preferred gubernatorial candidate took power (again, Utah: A People's History has a good account about this), which had the unique circumstance of the anti-alcohol LDS Church keeping Utah a "wet" state after many more "wet" states had embraced Prohibition.

[Zioneer]

Are Mormons outside of Utah as strongly Republican as they are in Utah (and Idaho, for that matter)?

Well, the two Nevada Mormons who immediately come to mind for me at least are Harry Reid and Brandon Flowers, and then you have the mostly but not exclusively Democratic Udalls scattered across the West...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are as many Democratic as Republican Mormon Senators right now, aren't there?

For Mormon Democrats, there's currently just Harry Reid and Tom Udall (Mark Udall has never been a practicing Mormon, as his father Mo did not raise him in the LDS Faith). On the Representative side, it's just as depressing: Jim Matheson of Utah (who I dislike vehemently and see as no different from a Republican), and non-voting Eni Faleomavaega from American Samoa. If you count Community of Christ as "Mormon", then Leonard Boswell of Iowa is a Mormon Democrat.

On the Republican side, there's Dean Heller, Mike Crapo, Orrin Hatch, and Mike Lee. Former Senator Gordon Smith of Oregon was a Mormon Republican as well, though a somewhat moderate one. LDS Congressional GOPers are plentiful: Rob Bishop and Jason Chaffetz of Utah, Howard McKeon and Wally Herger of California, Jeff Flake from Arizona (he'll probably become Senator as well), Raul Labrador and Mike Simpson of Idaho.

I wasn't aware that Dean Heller was a Mormon, and I wasn't aware that Mark Udall wasn't. So Nevada, like Utah, has two Mormon Senators. Interesting.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Wasn't EchoHawk in the Obama administration at some point?

Yes, it is interesting. What's even more interesting is that even excluding Romney, there's a real "Mormon Moment" in politics. If you read the (blog, but professional) articles in this thread, you can get a sense for just how many Mormons are in Congress or running for Congress (Senate or House) this year. It's a very interesting set of articles. Even someone from that specific blog community is running for Congress (as a Democrat in Wyoming so he'll lose badly, but still).

Regarding EchoHawk, yes, he was Assistant Secretary of Indian Affairs for a little less than three years, and just released/resigned a few months ago. I actually remember his appointment, because he was the first Mormon that the Obama Administration appointed, even before Huntsman.

[Zioneer]

Skipping over everything...why? It's the most repulsive combination of Christian ignorance with American exceptionalism...aka the result of generations of America's worst, yet disturbingly prominent, traits. Sounds a lot like our politics if you ask me. Not worth a discussion, just a dismissal.

Seriously? You're going to just dismiss my entire faith? You're going to go "nope not worth talking about", and instead of just ignoring this thread, you've posted to that effect? You're going to needlessly offend for no reason whatsoever?

If you take offense, I apologize, no disrespect was meant towards you. Your religion on the other hand deserves no respect in my eyes and I won't pretend it's worth anything out of fear for people's deep attachments to their fairy tales. Most here will assure you it's not just your religion, I have little respect for most religions. Especially those with deeply Americanized dogma, such as Mormonism and most of our other versions of Christianity. Afleitch did a better job than I could at explaining more deeply. I enjoy religious discussions, but not when fact is mixed with myth. I respect the right to believe whatever you want for whatever reasons, but I don't hold back my honest opinions of the absurdities and atrocities of religion. I was a bit inflammatory, as I tend to be on this board. So excuse me, but I don't just throw my respect around to whoever and whatever demands it.

Alright, fair enough. I still think you were far too inflammatory for comfort, but I'll accept your viewpoint on it.

I do think it's unfair that the LDS Church, as a younger religion, is expected to "grow up" quicker than older, more established religions (there certainly isn't the "get on with it" attitude displayed towards Catholicism, for example"), but meh, that's the price we pay for being founded less than two centuries ago.

[Zioneer]

Moving past that discussion, here's something of note; caffinated soda is a-okay for Mormons now.

I don't like the taste of Coke or Pepsi myself, but I suppose it's nice not having to bother to figure out if Dr. Pepper is okay or not.

[Zioneer]

Moving past that discussion, here's something of note; caffinated soda is a-okay for Mormons now.

I don't like the taste of Coke or Pepsi myself, but I suppose it's nice not having to bother to figure out if Dr. Pepper is okay or not.

Reading the article it seems rather odd that this is a 'health code'. Why ban tea? Drinking tea in moderation is mildly good for you given the antioxidants, but soda is just an empty calorie sugar drink with no known health benefits whatsoever.

Because tea and coffee is what Joseph Smith and his councilors said was not allowed when he first mentioned the Word of Wisdom, and that's what the LDS Church is sticking by.

Plus, they point out that even though caffeinated soda is now fine, addiction of any kind is bad and should be avoided.

[Zioneer]

Moving past that discussion, here's something of note; caffinated soda is a-okay for Mormons now.

I don't like the taste of Coke or Pepsi myself, but I suppose it's nice not having to bother to figure out if Dr. Pepper is okay or not.

Reading the article it seems rather odd that this is a 'health code'. Why ban tea? Drinking tea in moderation is mildly good for you given the antioxidants, but soda is just an empty calorie sugar drink with no known health benefits whatsoever.

Because tea and coffee is what Joseph Smith and his councilors said was not allowed when he first mentioned the Word of Wisdom, and that's what the LDS Church is sticking by.

Plus, they point out that even though caffeinated soda is now fine, addiction of any kind is bad and should be avoided.

I understand the avoidance of additions - it's why I don't drink coffee. Too much caffeine will definitely get you addicted to the stuff. The occasional cup of tea on a sleepy morning or iced tea with a meal isn't enough to get you addicted though.

And I get that Joseph Smith said it, but what's the actual logic behind it? "Because I said so" isn't really a valid reason to do what someone says.

Well, according to LDS teachings, you'll have good health, a better memory/ability to learn, and will be less susceptible to disease. Googling a bit, I found this study, which talks about the lower cancer and cardiovascular disease rate in Mormon communities. And if this Washington Post article (with a link to another study) is correct, the once-a-month full day of fasting that many Mormons (not myself, incidentally) do, it's also good for your health.

Of course, I have to point out that active Mormons love replacing alcoholic and other restricted substances with sugar and a metric ton of meat. Having too much meat is also against the Word of Wisdom, but I literally don't know a single fellow Mormon (including myself) who follows that advice. Polynesian Mormons especially love having meat.

And regarding the caffeinated soda; most Mormon youth didn't even follow that rule anyway, so I figure the Church simply realized it was fighting a losing battle. Many of my LDS friends have Red Bull and Monster energy drinks, and even I love my Dr. Pepper (and this personal anecdote isn't even mentioning Romney and his Diet Coke).

So I figure that the Church leadership finally gave up on enforcing that rule.

[Zioneer]

Well, according to LDS teachings, you'll have good health, a better memory/ability to learn, and will be less susceptible to disease. Googling a bit, I found this study, which talks about the lower cancer and cardiovascular disease rate in Mormon communities. And if this Washington Post article (with a link to another study) is correct, the once-a-month full day of fasting that many Mormons (not myself, incidentally) do, it's also good for your health.

Of course, I have to point out that active Mormons love replacing alcoholic and other restricted substances with sugar and a metric ton of meat. Having too much meat is also against the Word of Wisdom, but I literally don't know a single fellow Mormon (including myself) who follows that advice. Polynesian Mormons especially love having meat.

And regarding the caffeinated soda; most Mormon youth didn't even follow that rule anyway, so I figure the Church simply realized it was fighting a losing battle. Many of my LDS friends have Red Bull and Monster energy drinks, and even I love my Dr. Pepper (and this personal anecdote isn't even mentioning Romney and his Diet Coke).

So I figure that the Church leadership finally gave up on enforcing that rule.

I get that it's part of a health guide, but the health benefits from following that guide probably come more from not smoking, not drinking (a glass of wine a day is supposedly healthy, but total abstinence in a community will probably reflect a significant difference from one that has people who drink in excess), and eating more vegetables than meat. Again, there's no evidence to suggest drinking tea has any known health drawbacks. (unless you drink a lot of it, which few people do, and most things are bad in excess anyways) I just find it odd that it would even be included on the list in the first place as even in Joseph Smith's day tea wasn't regarded as bad for you.

I actually have no idea; I guess that if you accept Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, then you can say that God doesn't want Mormons to have tea for whatever reason. If you don't, you can say that Smith just didn't like tea (or his brother Hyrum, who gave the original clarification on "hot drinks", didn't like it).

Herbal tea and some versions of iced tea are okay, however. At my majority-LDS high school, we had herbal tea all the time.

[Zioneer]

Do Mormons still hold excommunication trials? And how does that work for ex-members who actually want to leave?

(sorry to respond so late)

I'm not sure on the excommunication trials; I've never been involved in one, and I've never heard of anyone in recent times being involved in one. I don't think either ex-members or the Church itself likes to do those anymore. Too messy, and in this day and age, too likely to become public.

Most members looking to leave the LDS church simply stop coming to church functions, and if they want to go the whole way, email/phone the church to take their name off the records. Most don't go that far though; they usually just leave the Mormon-centric area they live in and move to a different area. If they can't move away, they make it publicly clear that they don't want to be part of the church anymore.

I'll be honest, part of why the LDS Church says it has 14 million members is because a lot of inactive or ex members don't bother to take their names off the membership records, so a lot of people who thought they left the church forever are still in the records. In fact, people like Marco Rubio (who converted to Mormonism at an early age), might still be in the records.

[Zioneer]

Bumping this in case anyone has more questions.

[Zioneer]

Polygamy? Do you guys have any Biblical justifications or did Smith/Young have their own visions to justifiy it?

Both -if you read the Old Testament you will know that the ancient Hebrew patriarchs from Abraham to Jacob were polygamists (or at least bigamists). 

True, but why did Smith/Young accept it after monogamy became the norm?

That's a good question.  According to this PBS documentary (which I strongly encourage you all to watch if you haven't already), Joseph Smith supposedly received a vision during the Nauvoo, IL period that told him that polygamy was divinely sanctioned.  He later pressured his lieutenant Brigham Young into (reluctantly) accepting it as well. 

Well, reluctantly at first, because he ended up having 55 wives, and having 56 children from 16 of them.

Basically this; Brigham Young liked to take things Joseph Smith said to the extreme. With polygamy for example, Joseph Smith had multiple wives, but had no children (and therefore might not have had sexual relations with those wives), other than by his first wive. So Brigham has a massive amount of children from multiple wives. Joseph Smith said he was a bit uncomfortable with interracial marriage and that he wouldn't teach the LDS gospel to slaves if their masters didn't want it (which is what Missourians and Illinoisians though he would do), so Brigham bans black males from the priesthood. Joseph was Mayor of Nauvoo and likes the idea of "theodemocracy" (basically religiously-inspired democracy), so Brigham literally transforms half of the mostly empty Mountain West into a Mormon Empire.

Anyway, regarding polygamy, yes, according to the Church, Smith received a vision that said that he should restore polygamy like what Abraham of old had.

[Zioneer]

PioneerProgress:

Do you consider the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as being a Protestant sect, or as more of a stand-alone religion outside the known Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox traditions within Christianity? 

I'm open to either interpretation; the LDS Church has clear Protestant influences (King James Bible and all that), and it's founding was in the wake of massive Protestant evangelizing in New York State. Plus, we're fond of the idea that Martin Luther and the rest did the preliminary work to allow something like Mormonism to be possible in America. They weren't prophets, but they layed the groundwork. Also, we have no "Saints" like Catholicism does.

On the other hand, I'm readily willing to admit that Mormonism was and still is way out of the mainstream of "regular" Protestant Christianity (no Trinity, for one thing). We've got our own distinct religious culture, a theology that has very little to do with regular Protestantism, and a Catholic-style religious head. Plus, we've got distinct split-offs of our own, not just "different minister, same basic teachings"-type schisms.

So I would say that the LDS Church is heavily influenced by Protestantism, but is it's own religious tradition.

[Zioneer]

So the branches would be:

Catholic
Orthodox
Protestant
Mormon?

Rather than Mormon, I'd make that fourth branch (if one restricts Christianity to just four branches) be Restorationist, which would include also Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other similar groups that hold that they are restoring lost practices of the early church.

That actually makes a lot of sense; I'd be okay with that categorizing.

[Zioneer]

Well the Restorationists are mainly cults anyway.

Oh? Tell me more about how my faith is a cult. I insist.

[Zioneer]

PioneerProgress: Can you speak to the validity of this video?

I haven't done any of these rituals besides the baptism-by-proxy one, so I can't say for sure, but other Mormons I know have clarified that it's valid, though totally disrespectful to our desire to keep our rituals secret.

And yes, they're odd, but so are most older religious rituals.

[Zioneer]

Well the Restorationists are mainly cults anyway.

Oh? Tell me more about how my faith is a cult. I insist.

You don't allow non-Mormons into your temples, you have sources outside of the Bible, you only follow the parts of the Bible that support your beliefs, the church has specific laws that manipulate the followers, and a few other things.

RE non-Mormons and temples: I keep hearing about how that makes my church a cult; but I don't understand why that qualifies the LDS church as a cult. Plenty of religions are uncomfortable with non-members having access to sacred rituals.

Sources outside the (traditional Protestant) Bible? So do the Jews, the various Christian Churches of the East (Ethopian Orthodox, Saint Thomas Christians, the Assyrian Church), and dozens of others.

Specific laws? Okay, tell me exactly what you would say are LDS church laws that manipulate followers beyond what other churches do to retain followers?

And what are the other things, hmm?

If you call my faith a cult, you're wrong. The LDS Church is part of the fabric of history, it's not some "cult".

[Zioneer]

While you do have sources outside of the Bible, the sources are put ABOVE The Bible and nly certain parts of the Bible you follow.

Actually, we follow most parts of the Bible along with the non Bible scriptures. But thanks for trying!

The distinction between religion and cult is a false one. It's merely a matter of connotation. The secrecy thing does raise an eyebrow though. Just as with the government or your neighbor's finances, it makes you wonder what they have to hide. I'm unaware of any other major religion that keeps its activities a secret. Anybody is quite welcome to attend churches, mosques, and synagogues. Protestant churches, in particular, are always trying to get non members into their building And they're often quite creative. One large church near me operates a decent sized gym with membership far below market rate for the express purpose of getting non-believers inside the door.

Oh, we do that too, but the problem with that idea is that temples are not the same as churches of other faiths. We have churches and church buildings that anyone can use, and we frequently invite non-members to enjoy a dinner, a sports game, or a music performance at the church buildings. The Temples are like the difference between city hall and a government-owned restricted area. They are similar, but one is open to anybody, while the other (in this case the temple) performs functions that are and should be kept quiet. Imagine if you worked at a restricted facility and took your job very seriously, then some random guy broadcast what you were doing to the whole world? And this after countless numbers of people mock what you do in your job?

[Zioneer]

Where does the word, 'Mormon', come from?  I am asking with regard to its etymology. 

Mormon refers to the land Alma preached the gospel in the Book of Mormon. So it either comes from ancient Israelites in the new world or Joseph Smith's imagination depending on who you believe.

Also by the Nephite (a Book of Mormon culture) prophet Mormon, who, according to the LDS Church, abridged and collected together the BoM scriptures in their original form.

[Zioneer]

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/12/06/1295941/mormon-churchs-new-homosexuality-resource-tells-gays-to-be-chaste-and-hopeful/?mobile=nc

Bit of PR work by the church here but this part striking:

'We believe that with an eternal perspective, a person’s attraction to the same sex can be addressed and borne as a mortal test. It should not be viewed as a permanent condition. An eternal perspective beyond the immediacy of this life’s challenges offers hope. Though some people, including those resisting same-sex attraction, may not have the opportunity to marry a person of the opposite sex in this life, a just God will provide them with ample opportunity to do so in the next. We can all live life in the full context of who we are, which is much broader than sexual attraction.'

Despite the fact that it is an extraordinarily offensive thing to say, I'm intrigued as to what theological gymnastics was applied to reach that conclusion?

The theological gymnastics of "we need good PR without invalidating any of our previous doctrine".

[Zioneer]

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/12/06/1295941/mormon-churchs-new-homosexuality-resource-tells-gays-to-be-chaste-and-hopeful/?mobile=nc

Bit of PR work by the church here but this part striking:

'We believe that with an eternal perspective, a person’s attraction to the same sex can be addressed and borne as a mortal test. It should not be viewed as a permanent condition. An eternal perspective beyond the immediacy of this life’s challenges offers hope. Though some people, including those resisting same-sex attraction, may not have the opportunity to marry a person of the opposite sex in this life, a just God will provide them with ample opportunity to do so in the next. We can all live life in the full context of who we are, which is much broader than sexual attraction.'

Despite the fact that it is an extraordinarily offensive thing to say, I'm intrigued as to what theological gymnastics was applied to reach that conclusion?

The theological gymnastics of "we need good PR without invalidating any of our previous doctrine".

Is there any preexisting basis for the conclusion or is this new revelation?

It's based off the basic premise of "you'll have a chance in the next life for most things" that pops up in LDS theology frequently. I can't name specific doctrines off the top of my head, but there's basis for that, though not previously applied to gay people.

[Zioneer]

No problem. Any other questions?

[Zioneer]

I'd like to know more about Churchball...

Haha, well, I'm an unathletic nerd, so I haven't participated much in it, but my older brother is a sports fanatic and loves playing churchball, so I suppose I can provide some expertise in it.

Like I said in the other thread, it's basically just basketball, the only real differences being that it always starts with a prayer, is usually on church property, and the attitude towards the rules is somewhat... relaxed. I exaggerate when I say "Mormon blood sport", but young LDS men really do take out their aggression in the game. More broken bones, bruises, and so forth happen in that than football, then even the more peaceful games of rugby (which many LDS young men like playing as well; we love the movie Forever Strong as a basic rule).

And there's the expectation that their moms/the doctor will clean them right up (since most Utah LDS folks are comfortably middle-class), so there's less hesitation in violence, even though LDS boys are raised to be upright and non-violent (which, heh, doesn't always work). If I may give an anecdote, my in-shape brother recently played a game of adult churchball, and arrived afterwards at my family's house not knowing how he had gotten there.

Turns out he had gotten a concussion from getting slammed to the ground by a 300+ pound Tongan guy built like a brick wall in his congregation (called "ward" in LDS terms for future reference) and simply kept on playing, driving to our house after he was done but not remembering how he had done so. And no one saw anything wrong with him getting a concussion; that's just how Churchball works. And it always begins and ends with a prayer of immense enthusiasm, earnestness, and piety. Really a uniquely (ultra-violent) Mormon thing.

As a side note; to prevent me from having to explain "ward" and so forth every time I make a religious post, perhaps I should make a glossary of LDS terms?

[Zioneer]

I think a basic glossary would be very helpful.

Do you want it in this thread, or is this thread to cluttered for it (since most people wouldn't bother searching into the 7th or so page)?