Why the UKIP are scum

[freefair]

Margaret thatcher never got more than 42% of the vote.

The split of the left into two different parties - labour and the sdp - kept thatcher in power for so long. If you add the total votes from the sdp and labour in constituencies north of watford gap, thatcher would have the same number of tory mps as john major did in 1992.

Actually, in 1979 she won 44%, in 83, 43% and in 87, 42.5%. Also, why assume that in the event of there being no Alliance all their voters would have gone Labour? If you look at all polling evidence it suggests about a third of Liberal, SNP and SDP voters lean to the right wing. In a 2 party system it still would have been 56-44 to Thatcher in 83 and 54-46 in 87.

[DC Al Fine]

Thatcher is the only democratic leader I can think of to purposefully harm the lifes of a section of her people she represents to benefit others just to get re-elected.

This could be applied to any democratic leader.

[freefair]

purposefully harm the lifes (sic) of a section of her people she represents to benefit others just to get re-elected.

This is also the whole concept of wealth redistribution.

[Silent Hunter]

We can play this game all day, but the difference is, UKIP is known for its loons.

 flooded an overpopulated country with millions of immigrants

We're not overpopulated - there is plenty of space in this country. The UK's population density is 260 people per square kilometre (673 per square mile), which is not even in the top 50 of the world. Belgium, Japan, South Korea and Singapore all get on fine with greater population densities.

[minionofmidas]

Margaret thatcher never got more than 42% of the vote.

The split of the left into two different parties - labour and the sdp - kept thatcher in power for so long. If you add the total votes from the sdp and labour in constituencies north of watford gap, thatcher would have the same number of tory mps as john major did in 1992.

Actually, in 1979 she won 44%, in 83, 43% and in 87, 42.5%. Also, why assume that in the event of there being no Alliance all their voters would have gone Labour? If you look at all polling evidence it suggests about a third of Liberal, SNP and SDP voters lean to the right wing. In a 2 party system it still would have been 56-44 to Thatcher in 83 and 87.

In a 2 party system Thatcher would almost certainly never have become Tory leader, and would certainly not have been able to push her agenda through.

[freefair]

In a 2 party system Thatcher would almost certainly never have become Tory leader, and would certainly not have been able to push her agenda through.

If anything, right wing Liberals would have been her greatest supporters, they'd have given her far more support than to a One Nation candidate.

[DC Al Fine]

In a 2 party system Thatcher would almost certainly never have become Tory leader, and would certainly not have been able to push her agenda through.

If anything, right wing Liberals would have been her greatest supporters, they'd have given her far more support than to a One Nation candidate.

Agreed. There is a major inconsistency in the left as to what the Lib Dems are. When they go in coalition with the Tories, they're right wing, Orange Book jerks, but as soon as we talk hypothetical two party system, 100% of them are social democratic Labour voters.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

What? Right-wing Liberals c. 1974 were either utterly illiberal clean-up-this-dog-sh!t-now populists or deeply conservative (but absolutely not free-marketeering) rural notables.

[You kip if you want to...]

In a 2 party system Thatcher would almost certainly never have become Tory leader, and would certainly not have been able to push her agenda through.

If anything, right wing Liberals would have been her greatest supporters, they'd have given her far more support than to a One Nation candidate.

Agreed. There is a major inconsistency in the left as to what the Lib Dems are. When they go in coalition with the Tories, they're right wing, Orange Book jerks, but as soon as we talk hypothetical two party system, 100% of them are social democratic Labour voters.

No, no, no.

The remaining rump of LibDem support is right wing, Orange Book jerks. The SDP leaners have all come home to Labour.

[freefair]

Yeah, and as we've seen, support for the party remains at 8 or 9 %, giving credence to my hypothesis that it's around a third of their vote prefers the Tories rather than Labour.

[freefair]

What? Right-wing Liberals c. 1974 were either utterly illiberal clean-up-this-dog-sh!t-now populists or deeply conservative (but absolutely not free-marketeering) rural notables.

Hypothetically, I cannot see a situation in which Tories+Classical Liberals wouldn't have picked Mrs Thatcher.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

What 'Classical Liberals'? In the mid 1970s the only people who would have even thought of defining themselves as that were Tories.

[minionofmidas]

These are the people Thatcher scared into alliance with a Labour breakaway faction.

But even if she'd ever chaired the party - and let's remember by what margin she won the party leadership here - what kind of mandate would she have gotten under a two party system in 1983? Exactly. A rather narrow one.

[countydurhamboy]

Margaret thatcher never got more than 42% of the vote.

The split of the left into two different parties - labour and the sdp - kept thatcher in power for so long. If you add the total votes from the sdp and labour in constituencies north of watford gap, thatcher would have the same number of tory mps as john major did in 1992.

Actually, in 1979 she won 44%, in 83, 43% and in 87, 42.5%. Also, why assume that in the event of there being no Alliance all their voters would have gone Labour? If you look at all polling evidence it suggests about a third of Liberal, SNP and SDP voters lean to the right wing. In a 2 party system it still would have been 56-44 to Thatcher in 83 and 54-46 in 87.

You don't need to speculate; Lib/SDP 2nd preferences were polled at the time and freefair was right, although if anything he slightly underestimated Thatchers popularity. The 2nd preferences broke very slightly in favour of Thatcher in both 83 and 87. So the result would have been about 57-43 in 83 and 56-44 in 87. Shows you how badly Labour was perceived and how well the Tories did.  

Edit: figures are here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8506306.stm

[freefair]

You don't need to speculate; Lib/SDP 2nd preferences were polled at the time and freefair was right, although if anything he slightly underestimated Thatchers popularity

Edit: figures are here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8506306.stm

Jeebus, AND in 1992 as well!Then, it would have been something like 52.5-47.5.
Would have been brutal for them in 97 and 01, probably 60-40 at least to a united left block.

[DC Al Fine]

You don't need to speculate; Lib/SDP 2nd preferences were polled at the time and freefair was right, although if anything he slightly underestimated Thatchers popularity

Edit: figures are here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8506306.stm

Jeebus, AND in 1992 as well!Then, it would have been something like 52.5-47.5.
Would have been brutal for them in 97 and 01, probably 60-40 at least to a united left block.

Does anyone have current 2nd preference numbers?

[countydurhamboy]

You don't need to speculate; Lib/SDP 2nd preferences were polled at the time and freefair was right, although if anything he slightly underestimated Thatchers popularity

Edit: figures are here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8506306.stm

Jeebus, AND in 1992 as well!Then, it would have been something like 52.5-47.5.
Would have been brutal for them in 97 and 01, probably 60-40 at least to a united left block.

Does anyone have current 2nd preference numbers?

Found this for 2010 election. I couldnt find any figures for 2013
However I dont know if this link will work. If it does page 8 onwards on the PDf. It even has 2nd preference by region http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CGUQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oxfordjournals.org%2Four_journals%2Fparlij%2Fgsq042.pdf&ei=H1L9UOWcI6OG0AXOrIGgDQ&usg=AFQjCNEUk0hygeQDQu4GvWRuAWFstXOpeA

For those who can't be bothered to sift through a PDF,  The Lib Dem 2nd preferences were:
lab 40, con 27, ukip 12, green 21, BNP 1

The obvious thing to conclude from all the 2nd preferences is how toxic the Tory brand has become after 1992; Shows you just how effective new labour's negative campaigning and spin was.

[You kip if you want to...]

You don't need to speculate; Lib/SDP 2nd preferences were polled at the time and freefair was right, although if anything he slightly underestimated Thatchers popularity

Edit: figures are here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8506306.stm

Jeebus, AND in 1992 as well!Then, it would have been something like 52.5-47.5.
Would have been brutal for them in 97 and 01, probably 60-40 at least to a united left block.

Does anyone have current 2nd preference numbers?

Found this for 2010 election. I couldnt find any figures for 2013
However I dont know if this link will work. If it does page 8 onwards on the PDf. It even has 2nd preference by region http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CGUQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oxfordjournals.org%2Four_journals%2Fparlij%2Fgsq042.pdf&ei=H1L9UOWcI6OG0AXOrIGgDQ&usg=AFQjCNEUk0hygeQDQu4GvWRuAWFstXOpeA

For those who can't be bothered to sift through a PDF,  The Lib Dem 2nd preferences were:
lab 40, con 27, ukip 12, green 21, BNP 1

The obvious thing to conclude from all the 2nd preferences is how toxic the Tory brand has become after 1992; Shows you just how effective new labour's negative campaigning and spin was.

You don't think any of that's their own doing? After the 1992-97 parliament, Hague, IDS, Howard and Cameron's wishy-washy strategy in opposition, are you shocked?

[countydurhamboy]

You don't need to speculate; Lib/SDP 2nd preferences were polled at the time and freefair was right, although if anything he slightly underestimated Thatchers popularity

Edit: figures are here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8506306.stm

Jeebus, AND in 1992 as well!Then, it would have been something like 52.5-47.5.
Would have been brutal for them in 97 and 01, probably 60-40 at least to a united left block.

Does anyone have current 2nd preference numbers?

Found this for 2010 election. I couldnt find any figures for 2013
However I dont know if this link will work. If it does page 8 onwards on the PDf. It even has 2nd preference by region http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CGUQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oxfordjournals.org%2Four_journals%2Fparlij%2Fgsq042.pdf&ei=H1L9UOWcI6OG0AXOrIGgDQ&usg=AFQjCNEUk0hygeQDQu4GvWRuAWFstXOpeA

For those who can't be bothered to sift through a PDF,  The Lib Dem 2nd preferences were:
lab 40, con 27, ukip 12, green 21, BNP 1

The obvious thing to conclude from all the 2nd preferences is how toxic the Tory brand has become after 1992; Shows you just how effective new labour's negative campaigning and spin was.

You don't think any of that's their own doing? After the 1992-97 parliament, Hague, IDS, Howard and Cameron's wishy-washy strategy in opposition, are you shocked?

I worded that very badly didnt I? I'll explain better. Of course some of it was but New Labour nailed the Tories mistakes directly onto there brand. Lies, hypocrisy, unemployment, economic incompetency, corrupt, split, out of touch, For the rich. These are what people think about when they hear the words "tory party", few people think of owning their own council house for example. The negative campaigning was so successful that even after the feel good factor of around Blair seeped away, the fear of a Tory victory remained. Cameron had almost everything going for him in 2010 and he still couldn't win.
The Tories swiftly returned back to power after defeats in 29,45,64,74. Why not in 97? Yes I agree the incompetence of Major, Hague and IDS hurt them but I feel it was the years of successful Labour spin and negative media coverage that really did it in for them.

If you still think I'm talking rubbish about the power of spin. Which party first comes to mind when raising tuition fees is mentioned? Is it Labour who introduced them and then raised them again breaking their promise? I suspect not, no you, like me and 99% of people will think Lib Dem.

I'd be interested in what a Tory like freefair makes of this? Although this really has nothing to do with UKIP anymore, sorry.

[Zanas]

For much of its life, the European Parliament could have been justly labeled a 'multi-lingual talking shop'. But this is no longer the case: the EP is now one of the most powerful legislatures in the world both in terms of its legislative and executive oversight powers.

I think we left that one slip much too easily.

[YL]

Does anyone have current 2nd preference numbers?

No, but Yougov sometimes ask a question which is vaguely related, namely which sort of government voters would prefer, out of Con majority, Lab majority, Con/LD coalition and Lab/LD coalition.  When they asked this in their 16 Jan 2013 poll, among current Lib Dem voters (warning - small sample, less than 200) the percentages were Lab/LD coalition 53%, Con/LD coalition 35%, Lab majority 3%, Con majority 2%, don't know 8%.

[Siloch]

We're not overpopulated - there is plenty of space in this country. The UK's population density is 260 people per square kilometre (673 per square mile), which is not even in the top 50 of the world. Belgium, Japan, South Korea and Singapore all get on fine with greater population densities.

You're from London and you think England is not overpopulated LMFAO !!!!!!!!!! Do you go outside? In those population density statistics they include the mountains of Scotland and Wales, in the lowlands were most people live we are overpopulated and I and many others would like to keep some form of greenary in the UK, not be a giant urban island like Sinagpore no matter how well they all get along in paradise.

On average 200,000 people arrive in the UK every year, that's 1 million every 5 years I would bet the majority of them will be settling in your part of the woods mate, London and the southeast. Enjoy your traffic jam.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

in the lowlands were most people live

Technically this is true, but not as true as you think: a lot of 19th century settlements (including huge ones like Birmingham) are certainly not part of lowland Britain, however defined.

[afleitch]

Britain is not overpopulated. I'm surprised how much greenery we still have given the plethora of sh-tty identikit two storied housing estates that passes for achievement these days.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Related: Lawrie Barratt died about a month ago.