Why is SSM such a big deal? (user search)
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  Why is SSM such a big deal? (search mode)
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Author Topic: Why is SSM such a big deal?  (Read 17258 times)
Ban my account ffs!
snowguy716
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Posts: 22,632
Austria


« on: May 21, 2015, 10:11:14 PM »

My local rep in the state house overcame his own personal misgivings to support gay marriage for exactly the right reasons.

Take the four minutes to watch his speech.

http://youtu.be/FQi45bs-BNE
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Ban my account ffs!
snowguy716
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Posts: 22,632
Austria


« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2015, 08:51:35 AM »
« Edited: May 25, 2015, 08:55:39 AM by Snowguy716 »

1.  Marriage is a civil right granted by the government.

2.  Everyone should have the same civil rights under the law, regardless of their sexual orientation.

3.  Same-sex marriage hasn't been recognized in every state, so it is not settled.  

4.  Same-sex marriage has come to symbolize the greater struggle for acceptance and legal equality for LGBT people.  It raises the basic question of whether it's OK to treat people differently because of the sexual orientation and whether being gay is wrong/a choice.  So, the fight for SSM has advanced acceptance and equality for gay people across the board.  

5.  The US still has tons of homophobia and mistreatment of gay people so we have a lot of work to do in general to make acceptance of homosexuality a social norm.  We've come a lot way in the past 10 years, but there are still anti-gay hate crimes, conversion therapy and bullying of gay kids going on.  We can't accept second-class citizen status on any issue or be complacent even when we've had some political success in recent years.  As if it's OK to be homophobic or legally discriminated against in some states.  It's never OK and we shouldn't have to take it any longer.


I have a reasonable counter here.

1. Marriage and the family was instituted before the concept of human government. Thus goes beyond civil rights. (Look at Genesis 2-4 on this)

2. Those who want to change that are trying to undermine cultural and societal norms that have always existed. Thus the burden of proof to change roughly the whole of human history is on the ones trying to change that incontrovertible fact.

3. The Founders to a man agreed with the Biblical view of marriage and family life and shouldn't we at least consider the wisdom of the founders even if many of you want to cast off the Bible and its role in American jurisprudence.

4. For the courts to undermine the will of the people specifically expressed through their legislatures or through voter referendum to codify traditional marriage as the only acceptable marriage in said state is a stain on the very courts themselves

5. The state's who had bans on SSM who had them overturned by federal courts (yes I'm looking at you too California and Prop Cool should have said bans restored and all said "unions" voided from the state records at minimum.




21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

1“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Especially pay attention to verse 3, Calvinist.
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Ban my account ffs!
snowguy716
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 22,632
Austria


« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2015, 09:14:13 AM »

1.  Marriage is a civil right granted by the government.

2.  Everyone should have the same civil rights under the law, regardless of their sexual orientation.

3.  Same-sex marriage hasn't been recognized in every state, so it is not settled. 

4.  Same-sex marriage has come to symbolize the greater struggle for acceptance and legal equality for LGBT people.  It raises the basic question of whether it's OK to treat people differently because of the sexual orientation and whether being gay is wrong/a choice.  So, the fight for SSM has advanced acceptance and equality for gay people across the board. 

5.  The US still has tons of homophobia and mistreatment of gay people so we have a lot of work to do in general to make acceptance of homosexuality a social norm.  We've come a lot way in the past 10 years, but there are still anti-gay hate crimes, conversion therapy and bullying of gay kids going on.  We can't accept second-class citizen status on any issue or be complacent even when we've had some political success in recent years.  As if it's OK to be homophobic or legally discriminated against in some states.  It's never OK and we shouldn't have to take it any longer.


I have a reasonable counter here.

1. Marriage and the family was instituted before the concept of human government. Thus goes beyond civil rights. (Look at Genesis 2-4 on this)

2. Those who want to change that are trying to undermine cultural and societal norms that have always existed. Thus the burden of proof to change roughly the whole of human history is on the ones trying to change that incontrovertible fact.

3. The Founders to a man agreed with the Biblical view of marriage and family life and shouldn't we at least consider the wisdom of the founders even if many of you want to cast off the Bible and its role in American jurisprudence.

4. For the courts to undermine the will of the people specifically expressed through their legislatures or through voter referendum to codify traditional marriage as the only acceptable marriage in said state is a stain on the very courts themselves

5. The state's who had bans on SSM who had them overturned by federal courts (yes I'm looking at you too California and Prop Cool should have said bans restored and all said "unions" voided from the state records at minimum.


That's nonsense. 

You're wrong for two basic reasons.

One, we have a secular government and a secular Constitution.  What a specific religion has to say about marriage law is irrelevant. 

Two, "we can never change anything!" is a horrible argument.  Marriage law was not static for all of human history.  Women used to be treated like chattel.  We used to have child marriage, polygamy, dowry, dower, no divorce and arranged marriages.  All that has changed and evolved throughout history because society has changed and progressed. 

This is an issue of the shifting of what is an accepted fact.  At one point in America, it was an accepted fact that black people were inferior and deserving of slavery.  It was an accepted fact that women could never be full citizens with equal rights.  Eventually, opinions changed based on a continued national discussion. 

This same process happened with homosexuality.  There has been a national discussion on homosexuality, especially since the 1960s.  My side has won the underlying argument here, since most Americans acknowledge:
1.  Homosexuality is not a choice.
2.  Homosexuality is not immoral or harmful to society.

If you oppose same-sex marriage, you have to convince people on those underlying points.  Because, if you concede those two points, opposing same-sex marriage is nonsensical.
You can't appeal to reason with a man who has an immovable hate and fear in his heart.  That he uses Jesus to back it up ensures he nails Jesus and himself up on that cross every day.  Except JCL is the serpent wrapped around Jesus' neck and only J-CLaw will scream "pity me!  Except for you f****ts. I don't like you!"

You gave yourself away with point five, jack law.  Retribution is a nasty thing.
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