The most influental U.S. presidential loser of the 20th Century? (user search)
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  The most influental U.S. presidential loser of the 20th Century? (search mode)
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Author Topic: The most influental U.S. presidential loser of the 20th Century?  (Read 3983 times)
True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« on: September 29, 2010, 11:39:24 PM »

The case for Hoover: FDR took some of Hoover's failed policies (particularly towards the end, 1932), multiplied them x10, and succeeded spectacularly. Then when WWII broke out, he took his own policies, multiplied them x10 again, and succeeded even more spectacularly.

I'll agree that FDR was able to out-Hoover Hoover with his economic policies, but I wouldn't call it a spectacular success, except on the PR front.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2010, 08:59:15 PM »

The case for Hoover: FDR took some of Hoover's failed policies (particularly towards the end, 1932), multiplied them x10, and succeeded spectacularly. Then when WWII broke out, he took his own policies, multiplied them x10 again, and succeeded even more spectacularly.

I'll agree that FDR was able to out-Hoover Hoover with his economic policies, but I wouldn't call it a spectacular success, except on the PR front.

Decreasing unemployment by 15%, halting a nation-wide banking collapse, ending nearly 50 years of labor-management conflict,building some of the most lasting vestiges of beauty in the entire United States in the process, and then bringing this nation out of its most devastating depression with the buildup to WWII isn't a spectacular success?

Not by 15%, he briefly got it down to 14.3% in 1937 but really it was World War II that ended unemployment, not anything FDR did.

Halting the banking collapse, that was due entirely to his PR skills.

Ending nearly 50 years of labor-management conflict, oh really!?! Tell that to the textile workers.  The reason unions never caught on in the South as they did elsewhere was what happened with the textile workers strike of 1934 that happened under FDR's watch.  So I can't see how anyone with either a pro-labor or pro-management orientation could call FDR's handling of this area a spectacular success.

Building some of the most lasting vestiges of beauty in the entire United States ... Why do I suspect you are not a fan of Robert Moses?  That said, the WPA and the FERA before it were continuations of the ERA set up by Hoover in 1932.  The CCC wasn't started under Hoover, but similar conservation programs were being done in several places in both the US and Europe before FDR took office.

Bringing this nation out of its most devastating depression with the buildup to WWII ...  One would have to be as inept as Buchanan was to not get the US out of a depression thanks to WWII.

That said, while I don't hold FDR to be a saint, neither was he a demon.  He was an average president in extremely unaverage circumstances.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2010, 01:07:44 AM »

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Yes halting the banking collapse was due to his PR skills, why doesn't he deserve due credit for something that was 100% on him such as his PR skills? PR skills are vital to a good presidency in time of crisis and if his were such that he stopped one of the worst threats to our banking system than I'd say he's put them to a very good use.
First off, I'd already acknowledged that when it came to PR that was the one are FDR excelled at.  Still, it wasn't the only way the crisis could have stopped, merely the quickest.
There were other examples of strikes and labor-management conflict you declined to cite. San Fransisco in 1934, for example, ...
For obvious reasons, I'm more familiar with labor issues that affected the South than San Francisco.  I figured one example would suffice to illustrate my point.
The problem with using something that happened in 1934 to say he had a poor record on that, was that it ignores the Wagner Act (1935) which radically altered the balance of power from management to labor, and at least temporarily brought a form of mediation to the constant bickering. It wasn't a perfect system (strikes were rampant and a bit too much power was given to big labor), but it ended the even more unbalanced status quo that had previously existed for 50 years, yes.

Actually, I'd argue that the Wagner Act set up an equally unbalanced status.  We didn't really get a good balance on this issue until Taft-Hartley.
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Robert Moses isn't the sum of all New Deal beautification and construction projects.

No, but he's a handy example, especially since his work is often criticized.
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It well known he was merely a very strong advocate of a national level conservation corps (based on the success of the examples you mentioned) rather than its originator. I think I'm missing your point in this here somewhere?
My point is that if some other person had won the Democratic nomination in 1932, there was a fair chance he would have established similar programs.  If one is going to claim that FDR was a spectacular success in all areas, as was done in the post I was replying to, then that implies that there was something uniquely special about the man.
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This postulates that US involvement in WWII was inevitable and a complete accident. That's not a view I can reconcile with. Certainly the buildup and mobilization could have been ordered much later than it was IRL.

Lend-Lease could have happened later or even not at all with a different President, but not the American buildup.  That had begun well before the start of WWII in response to the buildups begun in Europe and Japan.
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