If BRTD lived in Northern Ireland...

[Intell]

But anyway Alliance while moderate heroes doesn't really bother me in this context. I just find Catholicism Islam repugnant theologically and am simply not capable of separating the "culture" from that.

How Lovely.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

But anyway Alliance while moderate heroes doesn't really bother me in this context. I just find Catholicism Islam repugnant theologically and am simply not capable of separating the "culture" from that.

How Lovely.

"Sure, I vote moderate hero, but it's OK because I'm a bigot!"

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

But anyway Alliance while moderate heroes doesn't really bother me in this context. I just find Catholicism Islam repugnant theologically and am simply not capable of separating the "culture" from that.

How Lovely.

"Sure, I vote moderate hero, but it's OK because I'm a bigot!"

It's bigoted to oppose discrimination against women and homosexuals?

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

But anyway Alliance while moderate heroes doesn't really bother me in this context. I just find Catholicism Islam repugnant theologically and am simply not capable of separating the "culture" from that.

How Lovely.

"Sure, I vote moderate hero, but it's OK because I'm a bigot!"

It's bigoted to oppose discrimination against women and homosexuals?

LOL!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/news/irish-gay-marriage-referendum-gerry-adams-says-its-a-huge-day-for-equality-10272161.html

[Figueira]

But anyway Alliance while moderate heroes doesn't really bother me in this context. I just find Catholicism Islam repugnant theologically and am simply not capable of separating the "culture" from that.

How Lovely.

"Sure, I vote moderate hero, but it's OK because I'm a bigot!"

It's bigoted to oppose discrimination against women and homosexuals?

I hate the Catholic Church and its reactionary views, but Catholicism is more of a cultural thing in Ireland. And most places to be honest.

[TJ in Oregon]

Northern Ireland BRTD would probably be an Orange Parade type DUPer and NI Presbyterian culture would have replaced his hipsterdom.

BRTD in his current state would have to either vote Alliance or PUP, though PUP are pretty crazy, so he'd have to overlook his anti-Catholicism and vote for the generic liberal party that is ambivalent on the Cath/Prot thing. SDLP is way to Catholic trade-unionish of a brand of leftism to be remotely attractive to BRTD and is nothing close to All Liberal all the Time.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

But anyway Alliance while moderate heroes doesn't really bother me in this context. I just find Catholicism Islam repugnant theologically and am simply not capable of separating the "culture" from that.

How Lovely.

"Sure, I vote moderate hero, but it's OK because I'm a bigot!"

It's bigoted to oppose discrimination against women and homosexuals?

LOL!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/news/irish-gay-marriage-referendum-gerry-adams-says-its-a-huge-day-for-equality-10272161.html

I don't give a f[inks] what a terrorist who has at least ordered the deaths of people if not killed them himself believes about gay marriage, but the fact is, I simply am not willing to affiliate with an organization as reactionary as the Catholic Church under any circumstances. It's a violation of my core principles, and I place that and my liberal values far higher than "heritage" or "culture" or any stuff like that. I don't know why that's such a bizarre concept to so many really (especially since it's hardly only me who's like that.)

But anyway Alliance while moderate heroes doesn't really bother me in this context. I just find Catholicism Islam repugnant theologically and am simply not capable of separating the "culture" from that.

How Lovely.

"Sure, I vote moderate hero, but it's OK because I'm a bigot!"

It's bigoted to oppose discrimination against women and homosexuals?

I hate the Catholic Church and its reactionary views, but Catholicism is more of a cultural thing in Ireland. And most places to be honest.

Then thank God I've never lived in such a place! Although I have to say if the range of places where that isn't true goes from as conservative as western North Dakota to as liberal as Minneapolis, then it must not be too odd or uncommon.

Northern Ireland BRTD would probably be an Orange Parade type DUPer and NI Presbyterian culture would have replaced his hipsterdom.

BRTD in his current state would have to either vote Alliance or PUP, though PUP are pretty crazy, so he'd have to overlook his anti-Catholicism and vote for the generic liberal party that is ambivalent on the Cath/Prot thing. SDLP is way to Catholic trade-unionish of a brand of leftism to be remotely attractive to BRTD and is nothing close to All Liberal all the Time.

1-I have 1/4 Catholic ancestry.
2-But it's well regarded that Alliance are a de facto Protestant party, just like the Republicans are a de facto white party in a sense.

[Intell]

Because that's the situation in North Ireland, and Ian Paisley and his church, along with protestants, are the liberal ones.


If anyone said that against Islam, he would no doubt be called a bigot

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Because that's the situation in North Ireland, and Ian Paisley and his church, along with protestants, are the liberal ones.

That's why I wouldn't vote for them, but the liberal Protestants, Alliance.

If anyone said that against Islam, he would no doubt be called a bigot

Actually if someone criticized Islam for conservative views on women and gays I wouldn't mind at all or call them a bigot.

[Intell]

Because that's the situation in North Ireland, and Ian Paisley and his church, along with protestants, are the liberal ones.

That's why I wouldn't vote for them, but the liberal Protestants, Alliance.

If anyone said that against Islam, he would no doubt be called a bigot

Actually if someone criticized Islam for conservative views on women and gays I wouldn't mind at all or call them a bigot.

You Imply that you don't vote for Sinn Fein or hell the SDLP, because the reactionary nature of their politics, due to their association with Catholicism, with them otherwise being a left-wing, why is that not the case with voting for Alliance, because of their association with Protestantism.

[Slow Learner]

Since when is the Allance a protestant party?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Because that's the situation in North Ireland, and Ian Paisley and his church, along with protestants, are the liberal ones.

That's why I wouldn't vote for them, but the liberal Protestants, Alliance.

If anyone said that against Islam, he would no doubt be called a bigot

Actually if someone criticized Islam for conservative views on women and gays I wouldn't mind at all or call them a bigot.

You Imply that you don't vote for Sinn Fein or hell the SDLP, because the reactionary nature of their politics, due to their association with Catholicism, with them otherwise being a left-wing, why is that not the case with voting for Alliance, because of their association with Protestantism.

Because I'm Protestant. I won't ever be a Catholic because the Catholic Church is reactionary and I won't be a Paisley style Protestant because they are so reactionary.

Since when is the Allance a protestant party?

I said de facto. They're effectively a unionist party even if not designated as such.

[beaver2.0]

Alliance.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I'll also note that the very premise of "cultural Catholicism" and the idea that by simply of virtue of having been raised Catholic gives you a connection to everyone else who was is actually pretty similar to the fundamentals of Hindutva.

But ultimately my concern here is basically just one of individual freedom. If someone who was raised Catholic wishes to no longer identify as Catholic anymore for any reason (like so many I know), then they should be allowed to do so and not still shoved into a "culturally Catholic" box. That's a very offensive way of thinking. As I've said before some of my church's pastors and active leaders were raised Catholic. They're not Catholic today. Period.

...and for the record I would also say the same thing about "cultural Protestantism" which is why I've really soured on Ulster unionism lately (and the realization that it is just another form of nationalism) which means that Alliance, while moderate heroes, are still the most logical and anti-nationalist choice.

[Kingpoleon]

But anyway Alliance while moderate heroes doesn't really bother me in this context. I just find Catholicism repugnant theologically and am simply not capable of separating the "culture" from that. And the DUP are obviously repugnant too. So Alliance as a de facto Protestant party that aren't insane like them is the most logical choice.
[/quote... And the SLDP?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I'll also note that the very premise of "cultural Catholicism" and the idea that by simply of virtue of having been raised Catholic gives you a connection to everyone else who was is actually pretty similar to the fundamentals of Hindutva.

The problem with Hindutva is that it's exclusionary and totalizing, not that it acknowledges that religion and culture shape each other. The very premise of 'the destruction and annihilation of culture in the US' and the idea that progressive submersion of ethnocultural minorities into a generic American whiteness internally differentiated only by consumption habit-based subcultures and trends should be celebrated and even hastened is also similar to certain fundamentals of Hindutva, just not the same ones. And also to certain fundamentals of Maoism, which I'm never going to let go.

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And that's fine. But you've, in the past, heavily implied that it's somehow wrong or bad for people like SMilo or a number of other posters I can think of to maintain cultural and emotional links to Catholicism. Other than your preexisting anti-Catholicism--an extension of your odd reversal of what most people understand by 'mixing religion and politics', wherein your political views dictate your theology rather than the other way around--there's no good reason why you would think this, based on what you've just said here.

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...you didn't realize that Ulster Unionism was a form of nationalism before?!

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I'll also note that the very premise of "cultural Catholicism" and the idea that by simply of virtue of having been raised Catholic gives you a connection to everyone else who was is actually pretty similar to the fundamentals of Hindutva.

The problem with Hindutva is that it's exclusionary and totalizing, not that it acknowledges that religion and culture shape each other. The very premise of 'the destruction and annihilation of culture in the US' and the idea that progressive submersion of ethnocultural minorities into a generic American whiteness internally differentiated only by consumption habit-based subcultures and trends should be celebrated and even hastened is also similar to certain fundamentals of Hindutva, just not the same ones. And also to certain fundamentals of Maoism, which I'm never going to let go.

1-"destruction and annihilation of culture" is a quote from a song.
2-I think what people tend to be missing is that I don't consider "culture" very important and that subculture is a far greater unifier and identifier. The example I used in one such thread was my namesake, where the vocalist of the band has a very Italian last name, but he goes to a hipster church in San Diego, not a Catholic one, and is clearly very deep into scene subculture. So who does he have more in common with, me or Keystone Phil? The idea that simply being an Italian-American means that he's closer to people like that than people who share the subculture is absurd. The idea that some pasty whitebread person from a middle class Midwest background who was raised Catholic has more in common with all other people raised Catholic than someone in the same subculture is so f[inks]ing inane I can't even put it into words. So essentially the "destruction and annihilation of culture" is simply that the subculture is displacing it.

(and there's nothing visible about being raised Catholic, but look at those guys' arms!)

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And that's fine. But you've, in the past, heavily implied that it's somehow wrong or bad for people like SMilo or a number of other posters I can think of to maintain cultural and emotional links to Catholicism. Other than your preexisting anti-Catholicism--an extension of your odd reversal of what most people understand by 'mixing religion and politics', wherein your political views dictate your theology rather than the other way around--there's no good reason why you would think this, based on what you've just said here.

I think what you go to understand is (won't hold back or mince words here) the Minneapolis-St. Paul Archdiocese is terrible. It's not just into socon activism but seems to see that as it's main reason for being. It's the sort of place that sent priests to pray over the legislature discussing the gay marriage ban amendment and counter-protest the protesters and also tried to recruit people from churches for counter-protests and protests against passing the marriage equality bill. I saw this documentary on Pride weekend and it was the main antagonist of it and most demonized institution. And the sub-dioceses (see rest of Minnesota and Dakotas) are perhaps even worse because they know they can get away with far more. Even as a kid growing up I could easily see that the Catholic Church of Bismarck, ND was one ugly, awful, disgusting, hatemongering institution.

And really, is the idea that many people prioritize their progressive values and politics over their culture and heritage really that bizarre? Some seem to think that it is.

(and there's a ton of other factors in the Midwest that have been discussed before but that I think some people just are incapable of understanding, such as that the number of Catholics here is too large to be see as exotic but also too small to be a dominant part of the culture, that Catholics are virtually indistinguishable in terms of sociological and economic status from Protestants, that the region is so integrated in terms of ethnicity that virtually no one is from somewhere that's almost all Catholic or has almost no Catholics at all, and that because of those factors mixed marriages are so common virtually no one has an extended family that's all Catholic or all Protestant. The end result is a very diluted culture that no one is particularly attached to.)

...what I don't understand is why some people see that as a negative and think the US should be MORE like Northern Ireland than this.

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...you didn't realize that Ulster Unionism was a form of nationalism before?!

You don't really see it in the US, and I found Irish-American nationalism pretty awful in ways that ranged from either really obnoxious to downright sickening (aka thinking that praising terrorists and people who fundraised for them made them real badass edgelords.)

[Badger]

He's still be every bit as insufferable.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I'm about as baffled that BRTD thinks it's uncomplicatedly a good thing for subcultures based on consumption habits to replace subcultures based on family ties as he is that people want the United States to be more like Northern Ireland. (I'm not one of these people, by the way, because Northern Ireland and the Upper Midwest aren't the only options here.)

I'm also perfectly aware that plenty of people develop their religious commitments around their preestablished political views; I just don't think that's somehow less tribal than doing it the other way around.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I'm about as baffled that BRTD thinks it's uncomplicatedly a good thing for subcultures based on consumption habits to replace subcultures based on family ties as he is that people want the United States to be more like Northern Ireland. (I'm not one of these people, by the way, because Northern Ireland and the Upper Midwest aren't the only options here.)

Personal freedom. You can't choose what you're born into but you can choose your subculture. Also it's not fair to expect people to marry only within their culture of birth.

But in terms of a church I don't see how any Christian could argue that having one where the uniting factor is what people actually believe instead of whatever country their ancestors cane from generations ago. And I mean come on, what did Paul write about this?

Still do you agree that any scene Italian-American has more in common with me than some stereotypical Staten Island

I'm also perfectly aware that plenty of people develop their religious commitments around their preestablished political views; I just don't think that's somehow less tribal than doing it the other way around.

I'm not denying that,  I just found it odd that some people like Gully and BelgianSocialist found this baffling and incomprehensible.

(I'll point out that even "the other way around" one's religious convictions are not necessarily going to be whatever they were raised in.)

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Of course it's best for a church to be oriented around what people actually believe, but it's sort of nice when both coincide. Note also that Paul never actually stops referring to himself as a Pharisee or as Jewish.

Still do you agree that any scene Italian-American has more in common with me than some stereotypical Staten Island

Yes. But--and I know this isn't really related to the point you're making--Staten Island is not (thank God) the sine qua non of Italian-American culture.

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Well, yeah.

[Kingpoleon]

But anyway Alliance while moderate heroes doesn't really bother me in this context. I just find Catholicism Islam repugnant theologically and am simply not capable of separating the "culture" from that.

How Lovely.

"Sure, I vote moderate hero, but it's OK because I'm a bigot!"

It's bigoted to oppose discrimination against women and homosexuals?

LOL!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/news/irish-gay-marriage-referendum-gerry-adams-says-its-a-huge-day-for-equality-10272161.html

I don't give a f[inks] what a terrorist who has at least ordered the deaths of people if not killed them himself believes about gay marriage, but the fact is, I simply am not willing to affiliate with an organization as reactionary as the Catholic Church under any circumstances. It's a violation of my core principles, and I place that and my liberal values far higher than "heritage" or "culture" or any stuff like that. I don't know why that's such a bizarre concept to so many really (especially since it's hardly only me who's like that.)

But anyway Alliance while moderate heroes doesn't really bother me in this context. I just find Catholicism Islam repugnant theologically and am simply not capable of separating the "culture" from that.

How Lovely.

"Sure, I vote moderate hero, but it's OK because I'm a bigot!"

It's bigoted to oppose discrimination against women and homosexuals?

I hate the Catholic Church and its reactionary views, but Catholicism is more of a cultural thing in Ireland. And most places to be honest.

Then thank God I've never lived in such a place! Although I have to say if the range of places where that isn't true goes from as conservative as western North Dakota to as liberal as Minneapolis, then it must not be too odd or uncommon.

Northern Ireland BRTD would probably be an Orange Parade type DUPer and NI Presbyterian culture would have replaced his hipsterdom.

BRTD in his current state would have to either vote Alliance or PUP, though PUP are pretty crazy, so he'd have to overlook his anti-Catholicism and vote for the generic liberal party that is ambivalent on the Cath/Prot thing. SDLP is way to Catholic trade-unionish of a brand of leftism to be remotely attractive to BRTD and is nothing close to All Liberal all the Time.

1-I have 1/4 Catholic ancestry.
2-But it's well regarded that Alliance are a de facto Protestant party, just like the Republicans are a de facto white party in a sense.

So you vote Alliance because of your religion, but not Republican because it's more comfortable with your race?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Of course it's best for a church to be oriented around what people actually believe, but it's sort of nice when both coincide.

Mmmmm, no. For one, let's be honest here, if someone like me started talking about "people of my background", even if it not intended that way, it would sound like a euphemism for "white" and a way of saying "no non-whites welcome". (Not that my church isn't overwhelmingly white as it is, but that's not by any type of design of course.)

But besides that...why would it be "sort of nice" for me to go to a church that was mostly people of German/Swedish descent anyway? What makes me closer and able to relate to them better than people of Norwegian or Czech descent? Or hell even people of stereotypically Catholic ancestries like Irish or Italian, which as I've noted many people from that have no problem converting over?

But seriously, the idea that this should be a factor AT ALL strikes me as waaaay too similar to far right thinking at worst, and incredibly pointless at best.

But on the other hand, in terms of people of a south Minneapolis style countercultural "hipster" mindset, yeah it's easy to see why I would be able to relate to people of that far more. And that matters WAY more than ethnic background, someone that you even basically admitted above.

So you vote Alliance because of your religion, but not Republican because it's more comfortable with your race?

I choose my religion. I do not choose my race. Also I don't believe the Republicans are more comfortable with my race so much as that many whites are simply morons.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

What I'm trying to impress upon you is that there aren't two binary 'sides', BRTD, where you can only understand yourself based on either where you come from or what kind of crap you're most liable to allow the culture industry to sell you. Do I strike you as someone who's entirely uninterested in anything and has no subcultural commitments other than being Italian-American? Does the Italian-American goth girl I'm friends with on tumblr who lovingly describes her family life as being like a sitcom directed by Francis Ford Coppola? Do the Jewish comp-sci/anime nerds I hung out with in undergrad?

And as I've told you multiple times before, wanting everybody to assimilate into a generic American whiteness is also similar to certain types of right-wing thinking, as you should have realized some time around the point in the other thread where you triumphantly used 'ethnically American' white conservadems in places like West Virginia voting for Bernie Sanders as an example of the 'completely assimilated, detached from their heritage and ancestries, white people' you love so dear. Ideally neither of us would be using 'is superficially similar to certain types of right-wing thinking' as a gotcha, because that's absolutely ridiculous, but you did first, so.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

What I'm trying to impress upon you is that there aren't two binary 'sides', BRTD, where you can only understand yourself based on either where you come from or what kind of crap you're most liable to allow the culture industry to sell you. Do I strike you as someone who's entirely uninterested in anything and has no subcultural commitments other than being Italian-American? Does the Italian-American goth girl I'm friends with on tumblr who lovingly describes her family life as being like a sitcom directed by Francis Ford Coppola? Do the Jewish comp-sci/anime nerds I hung out with in undergrad?

And as I've told you multiple times before, wanting everybody to assimilate into a generic American whiteness is also similar to certain types of right-wing thinking, as you should have realized some time around the point in the other thread where you triumphantly used 'ethnically American' white conservadems in places like West Virginia voting for Bernie Sanders as an example of the 'completely assimilated, detached from their heritage and ancestries, white people' you love so dear. Ideally neither of us would be using 'is superficially similar to certain types of right-wing thinking' as a gotcha, because that's absolutely ridiculous, but you did first, so.

To answer your first paragraph, no. But I don't see how it's debatable that depth of involvement in subcultures usually tends to cloud a born cultural identity. Hell I know ethnically Jewish people like you describe, but unless they're actually a religious Jew too all of them have zero interest in Jewish traditions and practices. And in my specific subculture since the progressive politics are such an integral part of it, anyone involved rejects any cultural aspects that contradict that. So no Catholicism on any level. My main thing is I've never understood why anyone found this perplexing or strange, seeing as how ~40% of Americans raised Catholic today reject not only religious Catholicism but any type of Catholic identity for themselves either. It's so common that treating it like a strange fluke that only a handful of people do or even something where it's not so uncommon that it's unlikely you know no one who falls into that category but that overwhelmingly it's not the rule makes no sense, especially amongst Millennials.

I'll point out by the way that if you take the attitudes expressed by the Irish posters and apply them to American public figures, things become downright inane. It makes no sense whatsoever to hold that Keith Ellison, Sarah Palin, Mark Driscoll or Katharine Jefferts Schori are actually Catholics because of "cultural" reasons.

And honestly, I just can't comprehend the implication that I am somehow closer to people who share my ethnic background than those that aren't. Like what the hell is Swedish/German-American culture anyway? And why on Earth should I care how many people at my church share that background? To me this JUST MAKES NO SENSE.

Now for the second paragraph, let me clear up that I don't want everyone to assimilate into generic whiteness. I want everyone to just be able to take their own path and identify as they choose, based on their interests and what they like. I mean, one can't deny that while metalheads and people in my hardcore scene are both very stripped of ethnic identities and cultures, that the sub-cultures are similar at all.