S6: Southern Heritage Act (passed)

[NeverAgain]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You might want to re-read the amended bill then.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I have no problem restraining local governments from destroying historical monuments and digging up Confederate cemeteries.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

What exactly about the flag symbolizes slavery?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

It's honored today throughout the South in official buildings throughout the South. I see no reason why this chamber of delegates should be any different.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Given that to you it's a representation of 'racism', Six Flags seems to do just fine with the stars and bars.

The same can be said of the Texas capitol building.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Again, it's a historical southern flag.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Then you ought to support flying the Stars and Bars.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

How many historical flags has the South as an entity had?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well, that's not what they were doing, at least not the latter. It was who they were memorializing was the issue. Agree or disagree, it should not be within our power to overrule a decision made on these individualized manners by the Local Governments.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

The concept of the Civil War was fought between the states over the state's individual right against perceived government tyranny, based almost solely on the issue of slavery. The flag symbolizes a lost fight for slavery, and is currently being used by many neo-Nazi, and White Supremacist groups, due to this perception. The link is quite clear.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

AND

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Because we do not appeal solely to the desires of lost rebellious causes? Along with this, it is an aspect of Southern history, but is it really representation of the South, especially in it's current new diverse form. Just because it is an aspect, and very bloody, racist aspect, of our history, does not mean it should be forced to be remembered for all Southern citizens.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Actually, no... It cannot. The Texas Capitol does not fly the Confederate Flag, nor is the Texas flag representative of the Confederate flag (flag was created in 1833, a long while before the Confederacy created theirs). So, no. Untrue.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Post Reset - 1. The current one that is flying (well, sitting in the Wiki).

This is really just a losing argument. I am fine with protecting and preserving Southern history, but that shouldn't be done through flying flags or intervening in local governments. It must be done through funding our museums, and keeping education alive for the next generation. If that's a discussion you want to have, I am all for it. But there is nothing productive that can come from an intentionally racially insentitive flag being forced to represent all of the Southern people. It may represent some, but it doesn't represent me, nor those who have given their lives to fighting against intolerance, hate, and injustice.

[JustinTimeCuber]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

The stars represent the individual states of the confederacy. That's why it has as many stars as it does, no different than the 50 stars on Old Glory.

What about the Stars and Bars says, "we support slavery?"

What about the Stars and Bars says, "Southern history is cool or something?"

[Wisconsin+17]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Do you support UNESCO heritage sites? We do have the power to do exactly this.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Only three percent of those who were in the South owned slaves. How do you explain the other 97 percent away?

As for White Supremacists, is the Texan capitol building white supremacist? Is Six flags, white supremacist?

It seems pretty clear to me that no, the flag is not 'primarily used by white supremacists'. But rather that the officials in the South honor the flag as a historical flag of the South. Nothing more nor less.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

And what exactly is Old Glory, but a rebellious cause?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Yes, it does, Nev.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

In real life it has had one. The argument that the South should be represented by the only flag to represent it in it's history, is pretty compelling to me.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Then why are you here? If you think we will lose, there is no point in debating this.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Who died and made you King? Many patriots fly the flags. Just because you don't like it isn't a good argument not to do it.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I'm all for funding museums. However it also means protecting the Civil war battlefields, the cemeteries and the monuments. There is a ton of precedent for the South to protect these things at a regional level.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Is there another historical flag that represents the South as a collective? No.

[Wisconsin+17]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I find it very striking.

[JustinTimeCuber]

I'd like to note that Oklahoma, Kansas, Kentucky, West Virginia, Maryland, the District of Columbia, Delaware, and my own state of Missouri are left out from the flag because they didn't throw a tantrum in the most long and absurd #NotMyPresident protest ever.

[Wisconsin+17]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Actually Kentucky and Missouri are on the flag.

You need to bone up on your state history.

[JustinTimeCuber]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Actually Kentucky and Missouri are on the flag.

You need to bone up on your state history.

I assumed that the flag made sense and only included member states.

[fhtagn]

What if we only flew the flag on Confederate Memorial Day? That way we get the chance to honor our Southern heritage in a way that pleases many Southerners, but we aren't making it a regular thing to alienate others.

[Wisconsin+17]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Kentucky and Missouri were members. You really have to read up on your history.

Also the District of Columbia didn't exist back then, neither did West Virginia. Neither for that matter did Oklahoma. Kansas wasn't a state either.

Maryland did and nearly voted for Secession. Deleware rejected it.

There's not a single state on your list that didn't have a motion for secession.

[Wisconsin+17]

I'd be fine with that fhtagn. What say the others?

[fhtagn]

So just to be clear, this is what we are discussing now, with my current suggestion.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

[JustinTimeCuber]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Kentucky and Missouri were members. You really have to read up on your history. Kind of, but the full situation was very complicated.

Also the District of Columbia didn't exist back then, neither did West Virginia. Neither for that matter did Oklahoma. Kansas wasn't a state either. They do now. Why should we fly a flag that leaves out 16.3 million of our people?

Maryland did and nearly voted for Secession. Deleware rejected it.

There's not a single state on your list that didn't have a motion for secession. Didn't say there was.

So just to be clear, this is what we are discussing now, with my current suggestion.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I don't think the Confederate flag is something to be honored, any day of the year.

[fhtagn]

I don't think the Confederate flag is something to be honored, any day of the year.

So one should not honor their ancestors in the ways they see fit?

Also the reason I suggested Confederate Memorial Day is because it it to honor those who fought and died. It's not honoring the Confederacy, it's paying respect to those who shaped the South into the strong region we have today.

[NeverAgain]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Declaring a heritage site is very much different than the enforcement or decisionmaking in memorialization of these sites. I personally support Confederate monuments, but I think it must be left to these localities to choose the process to best address them based on the needs of their citizens, not for us to make broad strokes of which are not representative of the desires or needs of those in these communities or those impacted. I am all for protections against vandalism or graffiti, but these provisions should be held for all graveyards, not just those of the Confederacy (of which there are already provisions in place).

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Okay? That means almost nothing. The overwhelming majority of Southerners would not pledge allegiance to the Union after the war due to the North's passage of the 13th Amendment (hence Lincoln's 10% Compromise, which meant that even though 90% were against the North, 10% reluctantly supported it). Just because the majority of Southerners didn't personally own slaves, doesn't mean that the majority didn't support the practice, nor fought for its continuance.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

First off, I'd suggest you look up the Texan Capitol Building, because as I view it on Google (and by the multiple times I have been to Austin), the Confederate Flag is not being flown. So, no, they do not fly this flag, and nor did I say that flying this flag or supporting it's use is an automatic white supremacist. As I clearly said (please do not misquote me), the flag has been and is being used by these groups for its symbolism of slavery. I never said it is primarily used by these groups, but it is used by these groups, and I would worry about supporting the use of this flag and it's potential emboldening of these groups against African Americans and other minorities.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Our Star Spangled Banner is a banner associated with liberty, equality, and justice for all, as these were the ideals that were fought and died for. This flag, while associated, to some, with a fight against tyranny, it has the obvious connotations of the fight to keep millions of individuals enslaved. That is the disagreement we have here.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

But flags should be representative of all individuals, not the antagonization of many individuals. I see no reason why our flag should be change from one that is entirely satisfactory to all citizens of the South to one that offends them.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Not that this is a losing bill, but that this argument that we should fly a flag that symbolizes hate and bigotry to many, because it is one aspect of our history is one that I just think doesn't hold up.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

People are more than welcome to fly the flag, and/or celebrate our history but that doesn't mean we should do it. We have no obligation to fly something that some view as a major part of our history (while some view as a symbol of hate), yet we do have an obligation to protect our individuals, and especially not purposefully antagonize them.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Wonderful! If you would like to change this to a bill that help increase funding for all Civil War battlefields, cemeteries, monuments, and especially our museums, then I would be all on board.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

We are in a fictional game, where there are regions and not states... Even so, the South was still a conglomerate of states. So, they were under their national (Confederate) flag, but also under their own state flag. So there is a flag that has and is represented the South, our current one, and our national one(s). Anyways, just because it is/was a historical flag, doesn't mean it should be our current flag.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I mean I am fine with it, but if we are recognizing the heritage of many, then should we fly flags that remember and honor the heritage and sacrifice of African-Americans and their enslaved ancestors, the same to many folks that were not involved in the Confederate side of the Civil War (of which my own ancestors were on both sides). I would suggest changing this entirely to adding on to our "Southern Heritage Day", and not flying any flags, instead supporting historical landmarks of our great region and increasing the funding of these places. There we can build on our progress and help our region fully remember its history.

[White Trash]

I think that fhtagn's proposal is very reasonable actually.

[JustinTimeCuber]

Motion to amend

You must be logged in to read this quote.

If someone wants to do all the actual work for me and make a list of monuments we should increase funding to, that's great.

[White Trash]

Motion to amend

You must be logged in to read this quote.

If someone wants to do all the actual work for me and make a list of monuments we should increase funding to, that's great.

So would this get rid of Confederate Memorial Day?

[fhtagn]

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=254935.0

Southern Heritage Day already exists.

[fhtagn]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

[JustinTimeCuber]

ok I'm smart

[Wisconsin+17]

JTC's amendment is rejected as hostile.

Active amendment is Fhtagn's.

[Wisconsin+17]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

These are already heritage sites. We are obligated to actually protect them.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Uh, the North didn't pass the 13th Amendment prior to the Civil War. If owning slaves is the reason why the majority of the South fought, why did only 3 percent own slaves? Clearly most fought for another reason.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Yeah, it is being flown. I live in Austin. They fly all six flags at the capitol building.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I'm not quite sure why we can't fly the flag of the South, because other groups use it for other purposes. Hell, that would be true of any flag of any state, not just the Stars and Bars.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

It's a flag of rebellion from King and Country.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

So because some people get upset by a flag means that we can't fly it? That's terrible reasoning. Yes, it might upset some. But, feelings do not trump facts. Is the confederate flag the only flag that the South has had in real life as a representation of the union of the southern states? Yes. So that means it is the appropriate flag for us to be flying.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Lots of things in history agitate people. How does that change the fact that this flag is the flag of the South? We've had no other.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

If it's good enough for the people of the South, it's good enough for me.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Actually we have an obligation to protect them, yes. That includes protecting Southern records and Southern history. Should we burn all the books that trigger people?

Liberty and freedom include the freedom to cause offense.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

It's not museums that are being attacked. The Cemeteries and monuments are.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

The only flag to claim to represent the south as a region is the Confederate flag.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I remember a quote from our distinguished Martin Luther King.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

How are you living this by preaching a gospel of division? Another great man once said, "A house divided among itself cannot stand".

What makes a black man born in the south any less of an American than the same white man born in the same city at the same time. Is the white man the actual 'american', and the black man an 'African american'?

Or are they both Americans?

Think carefully, Nev.

[JustinTimeCuber]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

there's also the flag we currently have

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Celebrating Southern culture as a whole INCLUDES that of black Southerners and the Confederate flag isn't something most black Southerners would get behind.

[Wisconsin+17]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You're assuming that there exist two cultures, Black culture and everyone else. Unless that changes, there won't really *be* a Southern culture.

[NeverAgain]

Okay, so before I get to your comments, Mr. Kenobi, I'd like to present my own amendment:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I will address your comments tomorrow, but I feel this can act as a solid compromise for all sides present.