BREAKING: Roe v. Wade might be overruled or severely weakened by SCOTUS

[Xeuma]

does anyone here think that certain sects of christianity might have to be outlawed for america to survive? Basically AOG, Pentecostals, nondenom, SSPX/Latin catholicism might all need to be banned. The sad thing is that there are a lot of conservative christians who are otherwise nice people. But like where do we draw the line. I kind of think Tushnet is right.

Because the right to kill your child is more important than the right to believe what you think is right.

Your rights end where others' rights begin.

Absolutely right. Now end abortion.

I’m glad to see red avatars are, in their fond phrase, “saying the quiet part out loud.”

[Xeuma]

does anyone here think that certain sects of christianity might have to be outlawed for america to survive? Basically AOG, Pentecostals, nondenom, SSPX/Latin catholicism might all need to be banned. The sad thing is that there are a lot of conservative christians who are otherwise nice people. But like where do we draw the line. I kind of think Tushnet is right.

Because the right to kill your child is more important than the right to believe what you think is right.

Your rights end where others' rights begin.

Absolutely right. Now end abortion.

I’m glad to see red avatars are, in their fond phrase, “saying the quiet part out loud.”

Women who need access to safe and legal abortions should be allowed to get safe and legal abortions. I really fail to see why we should be trampling on women's rights to force the birth of a child which will end up being abused in the foster care system or raised by somebody without the means to raise the child effectively, especially when religious fundamentalist nuts like you also want to end sex education and ban contraception. Furthermore, banning abortion will do nothing to stop abortions, it just means they'll be done unsafely, which makes death or injury to the mother more likely. So literally nothing good comes from banning abortion, but I'm sure you don't care as long as you can force your backwards religion on people and exert more control over women.

Sex education is okay, theoretically. Contraception and abortion are the same thing, except one is far more violent. Banning things actually does cause the rate to decrease. The value of life is not predicated on what will unfold. The good that comes from banning abortion is the end to murdering children. I'm not sure how this is "controlling women," that talking point has never made sense to me even when I was sympathetic to your view.

[Xeuma]

A wild "banning abortion will do nothing to stop abortions" appears!

https://rewirenewsgroup.com/article/2018/10/04/stop-saying-that-making-abortion-illegal-doesnt-stop-them/

Did you even read the article? It says abortion bans reduce abortions by half to 2/3, depending on the country and study.

No, it doesn't stop them completely, but no one has ever said they'll "do nothing"

The exact words of KhanOfKans are "banning abortion will do nothing to stop abortions, it just means they'll be done unsafely, which makes death or injury to the mother more likely."

[Xeuma]

does anyone here think that certain sects of christianity might have to be outlawed for america to survive? Basically AOG, Pentecostals, nondenom, SSPX/Latin catholicism might all need to be banned. The sad thing is that there are a lot of conservative christians who are otherwise nice people. But like where do we draw the line. I kind of think Tushnet is right.

Because the right to kill your child is more important than the right to believe what you think is right.

Your rights end where others' rights begin.

Absolutely right. Now end abortion.

I’m glad to see red avatars are, in their fond phrase, “saying the quiet part out loud.”

Women who need access to safe and legal abortions should be allowed to get safe and legal abortions. I really fail to see why we should be trampling on women's rights to force the birth of a child which will end up being abused in the foster care system or raised by somebody without the means to raise the child effectively, especially when religious fundamentalist nuts like you also want to end sex education and ban contraception. Furthermore, banning abortion will do nothing to stop abortions, it just means they'll be done unsafely, which makes death or injury to the mother more likely. So literally nothing good comes from banning abortion, but I'm sure you don't care as long as you can force your backwards religion on people and exert more control over women.

Sex education is okay, theoretically. Contraception and abortion are the same thing, except one is far more violent. Banning things actually does cause the rate to decrease. The value of life is not predicated on what will unfold. The good that comes from banning abortion is the end to murdering children. I'm not sure how this is "controlling women," that talking point has never made sense to me even when I was sympathetic to your view.

Taking away a woman's right to do something = controlling women. Not really that hard to understand. It eliminates their autonomy to decide whether they willing or able to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term, instead putting that personal medical decision in the hands of the state. It's strange to me how "small government conservatives" are just fine with a big government as long as it's restricting the rights of people they don't like.

I’m not a conservative and I’m certainly not about small government. If you engage in good faith, you might learn a thing or two about other peoples positions instead of incoherently ranting to the void.

If we define limiting complete autonomy as controlling women, we have a long way to go to fully emancipate not just women but everyone. Control as such is vital to organized society.

[Xeuma]

Anyways, both morally and politically, I hope this passes. Abortion is a form of murder and should only be protected federally for very specific situations.

Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being. If abortion is legal, it is explicitly not murder.

The state has no moral power to legalize abortion, just as it has no moral power to legalize any sort of human rights violations.

[Xeuma]

Anyways, both morally and politically, I hope this passes. Abortion is a form of murder and should only be protected federally for very specific situations.

Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being. If abortion is legal, it is explicitly not murder.

The state has no moral power to legalize abortion, just as it has no moral power to legalize any sort of human rights violations.

That's not how Western legal culture works.

We executed people for the Holocaust, which was also “legal.”

[Xeuma]

Anyways, both morally and politically, I hope this passes. Abortion is a form of murder and should only be protected federally for very specific situations.

Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being. If abortion is legal, it is explicitly not murder.

The state has no moral power to legalize abortion, just as it has no moral power to legalize any sort of human rights violations.

Weird take.

The state has no legitimate right to usurp bodily autonomy without overwhelming cause--and can never default to that as a blanket rule. That's the moral issue here. Government will never justly be able to regulate abortion because it lies so far beyond the bounds of legitimate collective power. The role of the state is to create guidelines for orderly society, preserve security, formalize the economy, protect individual rights, and provide certain services. Any action beyond that--for example, prohibiting abortion--is such an egregious act of tyranny that--no matter how popular it may be--it can never be just. If the state ventures into these areas, it loses all semblance of moral authority and is no different from a barbarous, uncivilized mob. Which, of course, would literally defeat the entire purpose of the American project.

Anyways, both morally and politically, I hope this passes. Abortion is a form of murder and should only be protected federally for very specific situations.

You have literally no moral authority on anything, ever.

Even under a “bodily autonomy” analysis abortion still fails. The fetus has every much right to bodily autonomy as its mother.

[Xeuma]

Anyways, both morally and politically, I hope this passes. Abortion is a form of murder and should only be protected federally for very specific situations.

Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being. If abortion is legal, it is explicitly not murder.

The state has no moral power to legalize abortion, just as it has no moral power to legalize any sort of human rights violations.

That's not how Western legal culture works.

We executed people for the Holocaust, which was also “legal.”

I’m serious: we obviously do recognize the state does not have the final authority to decide what is or is not legal: there exist higher laws.

[Xeuma]

But you can’t legislate based on that feeling. I am sorry to hear your story, truly, but it does not mean that everyone else’s world has to realign itself to fit with yours. That’s a little solipsistic.

Says who?

[Xeuma]

But you can’t legislate based on that feeling. I am sorry to hear your story, truly, but it does not mean that everyone else’s world has to realign itself to fit with yours. That’s a little solipsistic.

On the contrary! I assert that I think my values are superior to yours; if I did not, I would not hold my values.

I also want to legislate based off of my feelings about the barbarity of genital mutilation; my feelings about the evilness of slavery; in short, I feel very strongly in what I think ought to be legislated. You seem to be one of those who wish to dehumanize all of human life into thought experiments; to deprive an emotional world of emotion. I refuse to apologize for my tears, or that my motivation for a great deal of legislation I advocate is based off of my own life experience.

You are, in short, not disputing my point about how valuable my dead brother is to me, but insisting that it is illogical for me to grieve over him. You might as well tell me to defy gravity, for I will never apologize for grieving for my dead relatives. I would sooner cut out my own tongue than to disgrace them so.

And while you hold your feelings above our feelings, you also hold them above the objective indisputable welfare of others. The fact that the harm  is beyond a reasonable doubt in one situation and is not in the other is also dispositive.

Objective and indisputable, according to...?

[Xeuma]

But you can’t legislate based on that feeling. I am sorry to hear your story, truly, but it does not mean that everyone else’s world has to realign itself to fit with yours. That’s a little solipsistic.

On the contrary! I assert that I think my values are superior to yours; if I did not, I would not hold my values.

I also want to legislate based off of my feelings about the barbarity of genital mutilation; my feelings about the evilness of slavery; in short, I feel very strongly in what I think ought to be legislated. You seem to be one of those who wish to dehumanize all of human life into thought experiments; to deprive an emotional world of emotion. I refuse to apologize for my tears, or that my motivation for a great deal of legislation I advocate is based off of my own life experience.

You are, in short, not disputing my point about how valuable my dead brother is to me, but insisting that it is illogical for me to grieve over him. You might as well tell me to defy gravity, for I will never apologize for grieving for my dead relatives. I would sooner cut out my own tongue than to disgrace them so.

And while you hold your feelings above our feelings, you also hold them above the objective indisputable welfare of others. The fact that the harm  is beyond a reasonable doubt in one situation and is not in the other is also dispositive.

Objective and indisputable, according to...?

You dispute that many lives will be disrupted by a sudden massive change in abortion policy?

Many lives will be disrupted for the better, as they will have the opportunity to live them.