North Carolina Teabaggers resegregate schools

[CatoMinor]

Am I missing something, I don't see the part where it says that back children are not allowed in the same schools? I disagree with them, but there is no racism here, moron.

Segregation does not need to be statutory to count as actual segregation.

if people in one area happen to be mostly white, and the school reflects that that isn't segregation, that is just reflective of the areas demographic makeup. the high school I went to was roughly 25%-30% Hispanic , the same as the community we live in, but no one is crying segregation just because we don't bus in a but load of extra students from downtown Houston which would make our school more diverse.

[DrScholl]

If the schools are not equal opportunity or at least close to it, there is a big problem. The system really isn't about diversity, but equal opportunity. The Tea Party and their supporters can through out all the spin they like, it doesn't change what they're real agenda is.

[CatoMinor]

If the schools are not equal opportunity or at least close to it, there is a big problem. The system really isn't about diversity, but equal opportunity. The Tea Party and their supporters can through out all the spin they like, it doesn't change what they're real agenda is.

I agree that schools should be equal opportunity, but its wrong to try and paint them as racists for operating the same way most schools in America do.

I expect Lief to call people he disagrees with racist tea-bagging anarcho-nazis, but you guys are better than that.

[Smash255]

Am I missing something, I don't see the part where it says that back children are not allowed in the same schools? I disagree with them, but there is no racism here, moron.

Segregation does not need to be statutory to count as actual segregation.

if people in one area happen to be mostly white, and the school reflects that that isn't segregation, that is just reflective of the areas demographic makeup. the high school I went to was roughly 25%-30%, the same as the community we live in, but no one is crying segregation just because we don't bus in a but load of extra students from downtown Houston which would make our school more diverse.

Its one thing if it just happened to be the way things were, I think its a bit different when changes are made to something that has been around for awhile.

One thing to look at is how they draw up the lines.  If you have lets say a poor mostly minority neighborhood next to a fairly affluent white neighborhood, would the school boundries cut a bit into both neighborhoods, or will the border of the school lines be the exact same as the neighborhood lines.  

[CatoMinor]

Its one thing if it just happened to be the way things were, I think its a bit different when changes are made to something that has been around for awhile.

One thing to look at is how they draw up the lines.  If you have lets say a poor mostly minority neighborhood next to a fairly affluent white neighborhood, would the school boundries cut a bit into both neighborhoods, or will the border of the school lines be the exact same as the neighborhood lines.  

Well its one thing if it were both in the same town, but this sounds like a case where its people from the city and a different suburb. I disagree with the school board here, but you can not tie this to racism, or wanting to segregate. that would be if they were telling people in their own community if they could go to the school or not.

[Frink]

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Sure it is; its just not segregation enforceable by statute. If one group of people all attend one school and a separate group of people all attend another the groups are still segregated from on another.

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If certain people and community groups based in Raleigh feel strongly about this why do you care if they complain? There are a great deal of people (or organizations who have an image to upkeep ) who could be hurt by this decision and if they want to exercise their constitutional right to complain about a policy that may worsen things for their kids or at least somewhat impact their lives.

Secondly, you wouldn't call the policies in your neighborhood segregation, thats fine, but if the policy essentially amounts to resegregation (once again, I'd have to see the specifics of their districting plan and know a hell of a lot more about Raleigh in general) why shouldn't people call the policy out for what its logical conclusion (if, again, not intent) is? Particularly given that if the system is particularly strict about its districting policies and has rigidly gerrymandered neighborhood districts it could essentially amount to something quite close to that.

I'm far from convinced on the merits of either system, for the record, but Mint is still spot on when he says that the trend towards less diverse schools is not a good development.

[CatoMinor]

 no matter how you draw the lines there will always be people in the district and people not in the district, thus in a way segregation. But what some here seem to be spinning this as is that they are going back to the 50's and saying no minorities allowed, when in fact they are just doing what most districts do. I am on your guy's side, but too many of you are too quick to play the "omg teabagging racists!" card.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The wackos are at it again. Make no mistake, this what they mean when they say "Taking America Back". Take the country back to 1955 is what they mean.

Ah yes, those wonderful days of 90% taxation on the top 1%, high union membership and.. Wait, why do liberals hate the '50s again?

Uh, McCarthyism? Also the insanely backward values in society at the time (Seriously imagine if it were controversial for women to go to college or have jobs today.) and the horrid growth of suburbia.

I think a large portion of the attacks on it come from it being over-romanticized though, largely because people tend to forget that those old sitcoms like I Love Lucy are not anywhere near an accurate portrayal of what things were really like at the time. No one thinks the 70s were as "wholesome" as The Brady Bunch or the early 90s were as "wholesome" as Full House.

[Smash255]

Its one thing if it just happened to be the way things were, I think its a bit different when changes are made to something that has been around for awhile.

One thing to look at is how they draw up the lines.  If you have lets say a poor mostly minority neighborhood next to a fairly affluent white neighborhood, would the school boundries cut a bit into both neighborhoods, or will the border of the school lines be the exact same as the neighborhood lines.  

Well its one thing if it were both in the same town, but this sounds like a case where its people from the city and a different suburb. I disagree with the school board here, but you can not tie this to racism, or wanting to segregate. that would be if they were telling people in their own community if they could go to the school or not.

I don't think the race factor can be denied here.  Those who are in favor of this saying things like its not Selma 1960 anymore, while that is true its not it does show that race was a factor.

As far as city and suburb we will see when the lines are drawn.  In some cases you do have affluent white areas very close to poor minority areas.  If a line gets drawn right along racial or socio-economic lines its a major major problem, and will truly show the root of what they are trying to do here.

[opebo]

As some of our right-wing colleagues have expressed above, I don't think this sort of opinion or critique is permissible on this forum any longer.  I wonder if they've reported it yet?

[afleitch]

In Britain, such a move would be classified as 'indirect discrimination' (and therefore illegal) if it could be argued that poor students are disproportionally of one race over another.

[Franzl]

In Britain, such a move would be classified as 'indirect discrimination' (and therefore illegal) if it could be argued that poor students are disproportionally of one race over another.

How does one determine that "indirect discrimination" is actually a result of racism?

[afleitch]

In Britain, such a move would be classified as 'indirect discrimination' (and therefore illegal) if it could be argued that poor students are disproportionally of one race over another.

How does one determine that "indirect discrimination" is actually a result of racism?

Direct discrimination targets one group unfairly over another. Indirect discrimination is when through methods (often unintentional) one group is unfairly treated as the end result of the policy or practice.

[CatoMinor]

I don't think the race factor can be denied here.  Those who are in favor of this saying things like its not Selma 1960 anymore, while that is true its not it does show that race was a factor.

As far as city and suburb we will see when the lines are drawn.  In some cases you do have affluent white areas very close to poor minority areas.  If a line gets drawn right along racial or socio-economic lines its a major major problem, and will truly show the root of what they are trying to do here.

Those in favor are saying that because people are calling the move racist, not the otherway around.

And what if those lines also happen to be the lines separating Raleigh from the suburb?

Race may have been a motive, it is North Carolina after all, but we cannot just jump to conclusions like that when the only evidence of racism is just our own bias to believe that southern people are all racist hicks.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Yes, that direct/indirection distinction can be a useful one.

Don't know enough about the city in question to comment, though I'd be lying if I said I was a big fan of busing as a policy.

Ah yes, those wonderful days of 90% taxation on the top 1%, high union membership and.. Wait, why do liberals hate the '50s again?

It's not so much hating the fifties as hating the idea of the fifties.

[bullmoose88]

This has nothing to do with race, money, or segregation, and everything to do with parents not wanting their kids randomly bused all over the district to schools that are no where near their homes.

How are the neighborhoods down around Wake?  Are most neighborhoods racially and socio-economically diverse?

[Mr. Taft Republican]

This has nothing to do with race, money, or segregation, and everything to do with parents not wanting their kids randomly bused all over the district to schools that are no where near their homes.

How are the neighborhoods down around Wake?  Are most neighborhoods racially and socio-economically diverse?

Not the most diverse, but more than the overall nation.

[bullmoose88]

This has nothing to do with race, money, or segregation, and everything to do with parents not wanting their kids randomly bused all over the district to schools that are no where near their homes.

How are the neighborhoods down around Wake?  Are most neighborhoods racially and socio-economically diverse?

Not the most diverse, but more than the overall nation.

So it should follow that the schools are quite and sufficiently diverse without the need for cross-district busing.  Right?

[Mr. Taft Republican]

This has nothing to do with race, money, or segregation, and everything to do with parents not wanting their kids randomly bused all over the district to schools that are no where near their homes.

How are the neighborhoods down around Wake?  Are most neighborhoods racially and socio-economically diverse?

Not the most diverse, but more than the overall nation.

So it should follow that the schools are quite and sufficiently diverse without the need for cross-district busing.  Right?

You'd think, but it doesn't stop them from seeing "problems" with a lack of diversity. If its in their minds, I think they create the problems themselves. Damn politicians.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

It's obvious that you idiots know nothing about the local situation AT ALL. You just take a rambling spin article from a far-left newspaper that greatly distorts the situation and then run with your own delusional fantasies.

In reality, PARENTS (not associated in any way with the Tea Party) were fed up with their children being bused across town to a school that had no connection with their local neighborhood just to satisfy some bureaucrats idea of "diversity". Some kids were on the bus for more than an hour, as they drove past 5 or 6 different schools, to get to one on the other side of town.

This has nothing to do with race, money, or segregation, and everything to do with parents not wanting their kids randomly bused all over the district to schools that are no where near their homes.

Indeed. In fact, early last year there was a story in the news about one of the people who actively pushed for the new majority and thus the new policy. She was in fact a Democrat, and a proud supporter and voter for Obama in 2008.

This idea of "diversity" as supported by the proponents of the old policy is inherently unworkable. You just have to leave Wake County to realize that. Is Johnston County schools "segregated" because we don't bus people from Mico to Princeton or from Smithfield to Clayton.

There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with the new school boards policy, however; it is a a different thing entirely to claim we are "going back to the 1950's" in education". Last I checked, there won't be any schools where blacks, "aren't allowed to attend". That is the difference between now and then. And as long as we don't have schools where blacks are barred from entering then I don't see how it is anything remotely close to the characterization provided.

In Britain, such a move would be classified as 'indirect discrimination' (and therefore illegal) if it could be argued that poor students are disproportionally of one race over another.

How does one determine that "indirect discrimination" is actually a result of racism?

Direct discrimination targets one group unfairly over another. Indirect discrimination is when through methods (often unintentional) one group is unfairly treated as the end result of the policy or practice.

Okay, what about the 99% white counties in Western NC and Eastern TN? Are we going to bus people all the way to Memphis from Knoxville? Is that what British law would require?

[Verily]

In Britain, such a move would be classified as 'indirect discrimination' (and therefore illegal) if it could be argued that poor students are disproportionally of one race over another.

How does one determine that "indirect discrimination" is actually a result of racism?

There's the same thing in the U.S., albeit usually only applied to employment and voting. Disparate impact. You don't need to actually intend discrimination for it to occur.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Okay, what about the 99% white counties in Western NC and Eastern TN? Are we going to bus people all the way to Memphis from Knoxville? Is that what British law would require?

Don't be silly now. Of course it wouldn't (and, indeed, doesn't).

[DrScholl]

It appears to me that the problem is that equal education would be a problem if poor students were all jammed into the same district, because those schools tend to not perform well at all. Unless this amazing, new Tea Party board can assure equal education, this system is not going to work at all. Name-calling and hyperbole does not change the fact that there are problems with the Tea Party's plan (once again, they have no clue what they are doing). It's more about income, than race.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Okay, what about the 99% white counties in Western NC and Eastern TN? Are we going to bus people all the way to Memphis from Knoxville? Is that what British law would require?

Don't be silly now. Of course it wouldn't (and, indeed, doesn't).

Then how does diversity get achieved in those areas, since you guys are arguing that the lack of such a plan amounts to unintentional discrimination at the very least?

It appears to me that the problem is that equal education would be a problem if poor students were all jammed into the same district, because those schools tend to not perform well at all. Unless this amazing, new Tea Party board can assure equal education, this system is not going to work at all. Name-calling and hyperbole does not change the fact that there are problems with the Tea Party's plan (once again, they have no clue what they are doing). It's more about income, than race.

They aren't the ones focusing the matter on the racial aspect alone. That is what the opponents of the school board have been doing mostl ikely as an electoral strategy to make sure the black vote gets out in the next school board election.

[Verily]

Okay, what about the 99% white counties in Western NC and Eastern TN? Are we going to bus people all the way to Memphis from Knoxville? Is that what British law would require?

Don't be silly now. Of course it wouldn't (and, indeed, doesn't).

Then how does diversity get achieved in those areas, since you guys are arguing that the lack of such a plan amounts to unintentional discrimination at the very least?

You don't have to have diverse schools everywhere, just roughly equal education opportunities. If educational opportunities were actually equal in the new system, it wouldn't be discriminatory.