What arguments have actually made you change your views on a political issue?

[Crumpets]

I made this thread way back not long after I joined Atlas, but it didn't get a lot of responses and I'm curious what the current crowd has to say. I think when most people change their views on a political issue, it's usually a gradual shift over time, but there are obviously exceptions. I think I remember a case of a prominent politician (Barry Goldwater?) flipping to support the 26th Amendment because of the argument that "If they're old enough to go to war, they're old enough to have a say in who sends them there."

I find this sort of stuff interesting because of how much time we spend, especially on this forum, debating issues, pretty much knowing we're never going to change anyone's mind, so I like to hear what successful political arguments sound like. Have you ever had a change in views on any big issues, and if so, what were the things that made you change your mind?

[Lechasseur]

Arguments rarely do

It's generally real life experience that will for me

If a simple argument can change your view, you never really believed in it in the first place imo

But real life experiences and encountering new people can

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

We know that Clinton remained in Office cost Gore the election and WC defended Clinton because Blks and Latinos were impoverished still under Clinton IF Gore was the incumbent all the states that Nadar flipped to Bush W would of went to Gore and the Clintons together cost us 5 SCOTUS JUDGES And a CJ

Clintons and R Congresses didn't go thru the lottery process or state officials but gave Immigrants priority over Section 8 vouchers due to Dreamers

Andrew Cuomo is a by product of his boss Clinton due to Cuomo being HUD SECRETARY DURING LEWINSKY SCANDAL, HOW CUOMO LEARNED FROM LEWINSKY

[John Dule]

I was against the evictions moratorium, but then someone with a rose emoji in their Twitter username said I "lacked empathy" so now I'm for it.

[Xing]

Arguments tend to make people dig their heels deeper into the ground. Lechausser is right in that life experience is what tends to make people rethink some of their ideas.

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

Depends. Arguements, as in some leftist or nazi yelling at me, never change my mind. Certain reasons, like for instance how a report from an economic researcher changed my mind on universal health care, can.

[CumbrianLefty]

Arguments tend to make people dig their heels deeper into the ground. Lechausser is right in that life experience is what tends to make people rethink some of their ideas.

Yep, all this.

If you want an example of how NOT to do it, anti-Brexiteers in the last 5 years are hard to beat.

[E-Dawg]

Seeing how Joe Rogan and many others are able to responsibly smoke weed just how many responsibly drink alcohol helped me flip from being anti-weed to pro-weed. Also, seeing examples of cases of wrongful executions flipped me from being pro-death penalty to anti-death penalty.

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

Not exactly an "argument", but I think a critical look at other developed, Western countries shows where the US is lacking, in many cases a lot, and so that has made me more left-wing economically and opposed to austerity measures, even though most European leaders are center-right currently. Ultimately, I believe that free speech protections and openness to drug legalization are the only things we're ahead on.

Even my views on criminal justice reform have become more and more liberal. Norway's extendable 21-year prison term limit seems to have served them well. Their prisons resemble college dorms more than what the average American would consider prison. And as a result, they're keeping the real bad guys locked up for life (Anders Breivik will never see the light of day under this system) while rehabilitating the (majority of) murderers and rapists who are capable of being rehabilitated. Recidivism rates are low, there is no school-to-prison pipeline, and they fare better than we do in most other categories as well.

[CEO Mindset]

Emotional arguments or attempts to shame guilt never work, and make one's intentions clear.

this. emotional arguments/guilt tripping only reinforce my opposition to x issue

[beesley]

Emotional or practical arguments based on real world, lived, experience, particularly when it comes to the exploitation of the poor and marginalised and what the state can do, austerity measures and the economy, and education and the way children are treated. The theory came later, if ever.

I am generally quite a moral person, so a lot of my political views flow from that. But the above debates can make me reevaluate those morals.

[Big Abraham]

A person’s political views are closely intertwined with, or bound by, a person’s character and cultural/personal background. It is not an accident that women lean liberal while men lean conservative. As views harden as people age, they become less susceptible to arguments that might easily sway a child. One might gradually change their stance on a handful of issues, but fundamental revolution in a person’s ideology or mode of thinking pretty much never happens even against the most persuasive arguments.

[BG-NY]

Arguments don’t, emotional appeals definitely don’t, and snark never does. It’s one of two things:

(1) Data that I was unaware of or that didn’t exist prior
(2) Observations from an idea I supported/opposed in theory that performs differently in practice

[If my soul was made of stone]

The most fallacious and eugenics-adjacent or solipsist-liberal-feminist pro-choice arguments have made me much more skeptical of abortion on principle, though I still largely think that keeping it safe and legal within reason is the lesser evil.

[Alben Barkley]

Arguments rarely do

It's generally real life experience that will for me

If a simple argument can change your view, you never really believed in it in the first place imo

But real life experiences and encountering new people can

I don’t agree with that. But there’s a big difference between insults and actual, rational arguments and debates. And people in this thread seem to be mixing them up. The latter is admittedly rare these days, especially online. But I’d say you SHOULD be open to having your mind changed, or at least consider other perspectives and nuances more seriously, by a strong enough argument that makes effective use of reason and evidence.

That said, yes actual experience is more effective for most people most of the time. When my views have changed the most drastically in the past, it’s usually because of experience (whether personally and directly effected or simply what I observed). But there are times I have shifted my views at least a bit when exposed to strong arguments, especially those that expose me to new ideas and information I wasn’t aware of or hadn’t considered before. A mix of both is usually most effective.

[Alben Barkley]

The most fallacious and eugenics-adjacent or solipsist-liberal-feminist pro-choice arguments have made me much more skeptical of abortion on principle, though I still largely think that keeping it safe and legal within reason is the lesser evil.

LMAO why am I a not surprised?

And what’s with the talk about “liberal” feminists? My guess is the real reason for this is you don’t like the “TERFs” and thus are rejecting their strong pro-choice stand. The liberal feminists are the trans-inclusionary ones!

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

The most fallacious and eugenics-adjacent or solipsist-liberal-feminist pro-choice arguments have made me much more skeptical of abortion on principle, though I still largely think that keeping it safe and legal within reason is the lesser evil.

LMAO why am I a not surprised?

And what’s with the talk about “liberal” feminists? My guess is the real reason for this is you don’t like the “TERFs” and thus are rejecting their strong pro-choice stand. The liberal feminists are the trans-inclusionary ones!

Which is incorrect, for those keeping score at home.

[If my soul was made of stone]

The most fallacious and eugenics-adjacent or solipsist-liberal-feminist pro-choice arguments have made me much more skeptical of abortion on principle, though I still largely think that keeping it safe and legal within reason is the lesser evil.

LMAO why am I a not surprised?

And what’s with the talk about “liberal” feminists? My guess is the real reason for this is you don’t like the “TERFs” and thus are rejecting their strong pro-choice stand. The liberal feminists are the trans-inclusionary ones!

Your outsized antipathy towards me is endearing. Every time you try to pick a fight with me, I laugh out loud. I hope you're enjoying yourself, Alben.

[HillGoose]

the whole electoral vote thing, i actually used to support the electoral college because i thought it made national elections more fair by giving some sort of voice to rural interests that may not have had it so much, "candidates would only campaign in the big cities without it" etc.

Then I saw something, I can't remember what the exact numbers were but basically saying a voter in Wyoming had like several times more "electoral power" than a voter in California, even though those are both solid partisan states, because the EC gives an outsized influence to very small states, so I came to the realization that the rural voters were actually at an unfair advantage under this system rather than a disadvantage, which I had previously believed.

The whole electoral college system made more sense back in the early days of the country when things were actually more regional and each state was more like its own country, I guess, but now we actually have a national culture that's really not that different anywhere you go so it really doesn't make sense to keep that system around since it's not really like our nation is a loose union of states that we have to worry might fall apart, which was probably more the case when the system was devised.

[Battista Minola 1616]

The most fallacious and eugenics-adjacent or solipsist-liberal-feminist pro-choice arguments have made me much more skeptical of abortion on principle, though I still largely think that keeping it safe and legal within reason is the lesser evil.

LMAO why am I a not surprised?

And what’s with the talk about “liberal” feminists? My guess is the real reason for this is you don’t like the “TERFs” and thus are rejecting their strong pro-choice stand. The liberal feminists are the trans-inclusionary ones!

You seem rather fond of picking on others - Ayla especially - on this sort of subject, as if to imply you are More Feminister than them, and all I can say is: what a perfect application of the parable of the Mote and the Beam. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[President Johnson]

I was opposed to cannabis legalization until about three, four years ago because I generally think people should stay away from it. However, as my party - the SPD - supports it, my fellow Social Democrats convinced me it was much better to legalize it and permit purchase in licensed stores and not leave it to dealers. That also ensures better quality and gets the federal government additional tax revenue.

Interestingly, I once had to write a pro and contra essay in school over alcohol consumption in public. Initially I wanted to argue against it, and then came to argue against a ban during the writing process. It received the highest mark (1, which would be A in the US) in the end.

[junior chįmp]

Arguments almost never work. Whenever I find myself having to defend a position, I stop and ask myself: "Am I only defending this because it's a requirement of my partisanship/political identity?" 99% of the time...that's why

[All Along The Watchtower]

Dule's and other's informative posts in the Rittenhouse thread changed my mind on the verdict -- and made me realize a lot of liberals/Democrats/leftists in the media, on social media, elected officials etc. are either lying, stupid, or being willfully ignorant on this issue. This seems to be disturbingly common on "my" side these days, even if I still don't buy that it's as bad as much of the Right.

At the very least, this and some other events and discussions have inspired in me a depressing cynicism about a lot of people that I had thought were generally good (whatever that means in politics). Definitely not as kneejerk left-liberal as I used to be...