Which commonly made sage talking point is more annoying?

[IceSpear]

The Democrats aren't to the right of all European Parties (obviously), but they're to the right of most Conservative Parties in Europe.

[IceSpear]

The Democrats aren't to the right of all European Parties (obviously), but they're to the right of most Conservative Parties in Europe.

No.

Yes.

[IceSpear]

The Democrats aren't to the right of all European Parties (obviously), but they're to the right of most Conservative Parties in Europe.

No.

Yes.

Speaking as someone who rather dislikes the Democratic Party, no, they are not to the right of European mainstream conservatives.

In what ways? I could see the argument that they're relatively similar, but there's no way that the Democratic Party is substantially to the left of, say, the UK Conservative Party.

[IceSpear]

The American political reality doesn't allow Democrats to be what they should be, but that doesn't make them further to the right than conservative parties (who, I might add, would also be more right-wing if they could, usually).

Who cares about "what they could be"? We're talking about what they are.

[IceSpear]

The American political reality doesn't allow Democrats to be what they should be, but that doesn't make them further to the right than conservative parties (who, I might add, would also be more right-wing if they could, usually).

Who cares about "what they could be"? We're talking about what they are.

Way to completely ignore the actual point of his statement, which I've taken the liberty of "bold"ing for you.

Yet every statement to this effect has had no supporting evidence.




Here's two charts for the Conservative Party in the UK and the standard bearer of the Democratic Party. The Conservative Party is slightly to his right. Hardly the wide ideological gulf that people here are suggesting.

[IceSpear]

Again, you're comparing apples and oranges. Both the American Left and the European Right support what is politically feasible in their respective societies.

Sure the policy results of American Democrats, when in government, leave a lot to be desired from a left-wing perspective, but their actual ideology is not to the right of European conservative parties.

Yes, but that's still referring to hypotheticals, and not to what they actually are. Obviously the Democrats would be more left-wing if they were in Europe. But they aren't, and are thus able to be compared to European conservatives on an ideological scale.

Besides, what is "politically feasible" doesn't really describe Democrats well. For example, I bet single payer would poll better than Obamacare does currently. The public option certainly did.

[IceSpear]

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lol, mittens and obama being ideologically identical, good test, much accurate

Much better evidence than gut feelings and inclination. And on a worldwide scale, there really WASN'T that much difference between them. Only in the context of an American-centric worldview was there a wide ideological gulf between Obama and Romney.

[IceSpear]

If the political compass was accurate, than even in with the most right-wing results I got I'm apparently only as far right as Obama and as libertarian as Jill Stein. So, yeah, that chart is complete bullsh**t.

Again, you continue to see things from solely an American perspective. On a worldwide scale, not the kind that relies heavily on an Overton Window within a particular contemporary context, Obama is a conservative.

[IceSpear]

If the political compass was accurate, than even in with the most right-wing results I got I'm apparently only as far right as Obama and as libertarian as Jill Stein. So, yeah, that chart is complete bullsh**t.

Again, you continue to see things from solely an American perspective. On a worldwide scale, not the kind that relies heavily on an Overton Window within a particular contemporary context, Obama is a conservative.

Based on what, exactly?

Based on the fact that the chart includes ideologies such as fascism, communism, etc. I know in America you've been conditioned by the media and the GOP to believe that Democrats are leftist or even center-left, but they aren't by any stretch of the imagination.

Yeah yeah, I know Obama is conservative by international standards. But is he really that far to the right?

I took the test, answering as Obama would (though some of it is guess work, because a lot of the questions are ridiculous and have nothing to do with policy) and came in basically at the center, a little south into the libertarian half. I have no idea how you can take the test with Obama's positions and get a result anywhere near what that idiot did.

In regards to both of these posts, they actually had Obama much more to the left in their 2008 chart. I'm guessing they're going by what policy he's actually implemented since taking office rather than his stated positions, which the former are clearly much more conservative than the latter.

And once again, to say Obama is the equivalent of a far right whackjob in Europe has some very odd implications.

Nobody said that. I said he was ideologically comparable to a mainstream UK Conservative, and he is.

Also, there's been about 10 responses along the lines of: "lol political compass sux", "lol it was made by a true leftist". Is that really the best you guys have? If you're going to try to disprove something, at least use actual evidence.

[IceSpear]

Also, there's been about 10 responses along the lines of: "lol political compass sux", "lol it was made by a true leftist". Is that really the best you guys have? If you're going to try to disprove something, at least use actual evidence.

It's better than anything the Political Compass has.

Why, because it disagrees with the groupthink?

Just because center-right/right-wing governments are MUCH more common than the left-wing variety doesn't mean the entire political spectrum should be shifted to accomodate that, making center-right the new center-left and right-wing the new center-right. Of course, the Overton Window and the media has tricked most Americans into believing that Democrats and Republicans actually represent the center-left and center-right respectively, but I'd have expected members of a forum that views politics from a worldwide and comprehensive perspective to be more astute.

Edit: In regards to your edit, I'd like to see these "harsh words" and debunkings of the Political Compass. If they're based on actual evidence instead of just "lol they sux" then I'll certainly reconsider taking them seriously. As for evidence aside from that, I welcome you to give me some big ideological differences between David Cameron and Barack Obama. And "Cameron would be more conservative in the US/Obama would be more liberal in the UK" do not count, since they're based on hypotheticals and not real life.

[IceSpear]

I consider myself a mainstream British conservative and I certainly don't see myself as ideologically comparable to Obama.

Do you see David Cameron as ideologically comparable to Obama? If no, why not?

[IceSpear]

Also, there's been about 10 responses along the lines of: "lol political compass sux", "lol it was made by a true leftist". Is that really the best you guys have? If you're going to try to disprove something, at least use actual evidence.

It's better than anything the Political Compass has.

Why, because it disagrees with the groupthink?

If all you have to say in response to the following points:

The Political Compass charts are a great example of how you can get people to believe utter nonsense just by putting it in fancy graphs and charts and all. Their agenda has become more obvious with that writeup and wasn't all that disguised before (one amusing thing about their previous charts was labeling one dot "Labour/New Labour") and it's not just on US or British politics that they're so ridiculous, note this chart.

And once again, to say Obama is the equivalent of a far right whackjob in Europe has some very odd implications. It states that the Thatcherites are the equivalent of left wingers in the US, which would only be possible if unions in the US were actually completely illegal or something, while in fact someone like Scott Walker's actions on unions would be completely at home in a European conservative party. Also look at the actual far right nutjobs in Europe's positions on immigration, and compare it to Obama.  Imagine if a US politician proposed that children of immigrants have completely separate schools to avoid them from "tainting" American culture. This was actually proposed by the leader of what was once the largest right wing party in Austria. The US is also certainly not the most capitalist country in the world, what country is is tough to discern and it's not like this can even be objectively measured, but somewhere like Switzerland or some East Asian countries would be better candidates (even if you exclude those micronation tax havens), even a country like Germany in some ways has an economy that's less regulated than the US's. The fact that company unions are illegal in the US is a topic rarely brought up but worth considering.

The US is also far more friendly to marijuana legalization than almost all other countries, and Obama hasn't exactly stood in the way, despite the demonization he gets from libertarians over this he did hamstring the Justice Department from doing more against states that legalized it, and he could've done A LOT more if he was serious about stopping it, and he even issued guidelines recently that would protect banks doing business with legal marijuana sellers, and essentially prevented some overzealous federal prosecutor from filing charges over them doing business with illegal drug sellers.

I took the test, answering as Obama would (though some of it is guess work, because a lot of the questions are ridiculous and have nothing to do with policy) and came in basically at the center, a little south into the libertarian half. I have no idea how you can take the test with Obama's positions and get a result anywhere near what that idiot did.

Also, if Stewart Alexander is only halfway to the fullest extent of the economic left, what would a 100% economic leftist look like? How far can you go beyond socialism?

Also there's plenty of amusing things about that chart of the British parties above, but there's one that stands out that I feel the need to highlight: the closest party to Labour is the DUP.

... is vague and lazy charges of "groupthink", then well I guess you can keep digging that hole.  But you're not doing yourself or your arguments any favors.

Leif: Already responded to that one. Most likely based on actual policy implemented during his term as opposed to stated policy positions. In 2008 he was shown as more to the left than in 2012.

Rep. Deus: There are different degrees of socialism just like there are different degrees of capitalism. Regardless, Communism would still be to the left.

Long name guy: Just having an "agenda" in and of itself doesn't disprove the charts, although it is a reason to be wary. I also responded to this, nobody said Obama was comparable to a far-right whacko in Europe, but to a mainstream European conservative. In fact, I expressly disagreed with the original poll that said "far right European parties are left of the Dems". I do agree with you that immigration is one of the few issues that Democrats are to the distinct left of European conservatives, but that doesn't erase all their other similarities. Obama still totally opposes marijuana legalization or decriminalization, just because he didn't order the feds to drone all marijuana dispensaries doesn't make him any more liberal on the issue.

Also, I'm still waiting with bated breath for these huge ideological differences between Obama and Cameron.

[IceSpear]

It's reasonable to claim that Obama is further right than would be acceptable for a leader of many mainstream European leftist or center-left parties, at least historically; it's even reasonable to claim--and Obama himself has intimated or come close to intimating this in the past--that there are some vaguely One Nation or Red Tory-type elements to his worldview, policies, and rhetoric, or that he's fundamentally a centrist or a pragmatist who's shown an openness to center-right policy proposals that leftists could and should find worrying. What it's not reasonable to claim is that Obama or the Democratic Party as a whole would be, overall, notably right of center--in other words anywhere past center-center-right, One Nation, Red Tory, or what-have-you--on the political spectra of most European countries as they currently exist, or that there are no substantive differences between him and American politicians who really are very far to the right by world standards.

I'm not one of the "both parties are the same, writing in Bernie" blah blah people. I work with what I'm given. The Democrats' center-right policies are far more preferable to the GOP's far-right policies. But I'm not going to delude myself into thinking that Democrats are left in any way shape or form just to feel better about voting for them.  And yes, I do agree with you that in Europe the GOP would be a fringe party that would rarely if ever crack 5% of the vote.

[IceSpear]

You guys do bring up some good points against the Political Compass, along with the fact that the quiz does have some questions that don't really correlate well with policy views (along with being impossible to know Obama's and others' opinion on some of them). I would like to see how he answers those questions for different people, especially for political parties in general, to see how he arrives at his results.

As for Cameron v. Obama, you can argue that the GOP House has stymied Obama's economically liberal agenda, but that doesn't square well with the fact that Obama's stimulus was mostly tax cuts and widely seen as too small by economists even when Congress had huge Democratic majorities. And yes, when you consider the context of the Overton Window within their respective countries, there is more space between Cameron and Obama, but I never argued against this. I simply said that at face value their ideology is not too far apart, and it really isn't in the grand scheme of things. I'm not looking at "what's truly in their heart", which is ambiguous, but tangible aspects of how they have governed.

[IceSpear]

IMHO, both the Democratic and Republican Parties are comparatively centrist (or center-right) , ideologically Liberal parties. They both come from the tradition of "classical" (ie before the 20th century) Liberalism, so they really don't have a whole lot of fundamental disagreement about the goals of politics and public policy.

As I've said before, the United States is pretty much a country of ideological consensus-with the differences between the parties being largely based on a list of practical, specific policy "issues" that fit the sensibilities of Mass Politics.

I mean-who would publicly argue with these statements, in America?

"We want freedom of speech."

"We want equality of opportunity."

"We want strong social mobility."

"We want a strong middle class."

"We want people to play by the rules, in both the public and private sectors."

"We want a well-educated citizenry."

"We want America to be a place where immigrants come to make a better life for themselves."

'We refer to the Constitution for guidance."

And so on and so forth. The vast majority of politicians from both parties in the United States would agree with most, if not all of these statements (and others).  That is how broadly speaking, the United States is a place of remarkable ideological and philosophical consensus.

Rhetoric aside, there really is not much out of the mainstream (far-left or far-right) that is viable or even imaginable in American politics. And while the Democrats are pretty clearly the "left-wing" party in America's two-party system while the Republicans are "right-wing", that doesn't mean that either party is defined by foundational ideological differences with the other.

There's a big difference between saying you believe those things and actually believing them. Many Tea Partiers do NOT support the things I bolded.