Libya: Benghazi unrest, to Civil War, to a new government and Gaddafi's death.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

That said, I'm tired of us being the worlds cops.

So do I, especially since most of the time that 'cops' really didn't help. And here they jumped in the boat in the last minute while France-UK had already begun to decide to go, and then US mess with the command of operations with NATO...

Let me repeat that : we can't let things last that way for decades.

Cute, but I'm not sure permanently saying things go bad because you don't see it ruled within 24 hours actually help. Hell, such things take time. We are not acting for ourselves, if your impatience means you want troops, then such a demand has to come from rebels. That this is not our war.

As matter of fact, on Ajdabiya front:

Rebels received some arms, they opened heavy fire on Gaddafi forces, and there are chances that they enter in the city by tonight.

Zintan:

Apparently it will be quite hard for Gaddafi forces to take the city, but they try again and again, they could screw a lot of forces like that, and if Zintan succeeds to open a second front by having screwed a lot of enemy forces then they might gain still more equipment, and maybe they could go toward Zawiya which was a big rebel stronghold.

That being said, yeah, Misrata would have fallen back into Gaddafi forces hands. But all can't be ruled within hours, and we are not acting for ourselves.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Let me repeat that : we can't let things last that way for decades.

Cute, but I'm not sure permanently saying things go bad because you don't see it ruled within 24 hours actually help. Hell, such things take time. We are not acting for ourselves, if your impatience means you want troops, then such a demand has to come from rebels. That this is not our war.

My impatience means that a permanent civil war is the worst possible scenario for Libya. I don't know what should be done, but I know that, while preventing Gaddafi from slaughtering the rebels is a very good thing, it's no longer sufficient.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Perhaps I missed it, but why are the French, of all the nations participating, so jumpin ugly about blowing Gaddafi to smithereens?

It's very indelicate, very un-French-like.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Perhaps I missed it, but why are the French, of all the nations participating, so jumpin ugly about blowing Gaddafi to smithereens?

It's very indelicate, very un-French-like.

Which proves you don't know a sh*t about Frenchs.

Not that I know it very well myself, but maybe the main reasons are :
- "We-are-the-human-rights-nation" mentality, which is very radicated in the country. Whether France has ever been the human rights nation is of course debatable. But the point is that there is something in the French mentalities that tends to believe that, every time there's something bad in the world, France should just fix it. Or at least that the role of French diplomacy is to serve the interests of oppressed people worldwide. That's why a huge majority of French support the intervention (even though things could change).
- A political motivation associated to this mentality : Sarkozy is always accused (rightfully) to have ridiculed the French diplomacy with totally cynical and tasteless moves (like Gaddafi's reception at the beginning of his term, or his close ties to Ben Ali, or his praises to Putin). So this was a perfect occasion for him to rebuild some morality. Of course that doesn't mean the French involvement was merely cynical, but it certainly played a role, if not in the decision, at least in the amound of energy France has spend to convince other countries.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Ah, in term of military intervention, compared to all American ones I can think of for at least 20 years and still going on now, that's a very delicate one actually. I actually hope it could be used as an example showing that it's not because some Western forces do something abroad that it necessarily means blind-vengeance/imperialism/counter-terrorism-that-kill-civilians-and-create-still-more-terrorism-and-extremism-in-politics (that latter could be shorten by US strategy in AfPak-Yemen). Juppé makes a big job in this sense, may it works.

As for real reasons that pushed France ahead they have been evocated in this thread and the other one on it.

I just see Antonio's post, well, I'm not sure French are very interventionist actually, we have a universalistic mentality, but I'm not sure people are very pushy to see it transformed in international political acts generally. The journalist class would be more interventionist than the people.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I just see Antonio's post, well, I'm not sure French are very interventionist actually, we have a universalistic mentality, but I'm not sure people are very pushy to see it transformed in international political acts generally. The journalist class would be more interventionist than the people.

Well, the journalists make the opinion of the other people.

Seriously though, I think most french people would prefer a diplomacy based on human rights, at least moreso than Sarkozy's diplomacy has been in past years. Whether this translates in interventionism or not depends on how things are presented. If people see Gaddafi killing thousands of people and have the impression that we could do something to stop him, they will support intervention easily IMO. Of course, if it is presented as an "American imperialist crusade" like Irak (a label which has since, unfairly, been associated with Afghanistan), it will be totally different...

[GMantis]

Don't know if this is true or not (see context here) but if this is really happening, the tribal war which has been denied by many posters here will soon be a fact.

[Christin Herring]

Gadhafi has already been in power for over 42 years. Moreover, his regime has been suspected of kidnapping, detaining, as well as innumerable counts of secret murders, which is not at all unlike Stalin over half a century ago. Gadhafi only adopted a more conciliatory stance towards the western nations in 2003 because he was afraid of suffering the same fate as Saddam Hussein in Iraq. He is a coward, as well as a monster. He attacks his own people with machine guns and tanks, and then pitifully attempts to cover it up in front of the international community. It is the very duty of the United Nations to destroy this kind of regime, because it was to depose this kind of totalitarianism that both World War II and the Cold War were fought. Therefore, the United Nations should not be using timid and indecisive tactics like the no fly zone and military sanctions on both sides, but should be directly arming the rebels. There should be no compromise with a dictator like Gadhafi, just as there was no compromise with Hitler. Waiting for the political winds to blow for firmer military action will only prolong and increase the bloodshed, the international community must act, and act now.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

I just see Antonio's post, well, I'm not sure French are very interventionist actually, we have a universalistic mentality, but I'm not sure people are very pushy to see it transformed in international political acts generally. The journalist class would be more interventionist than the people.

Well, the journalists make the opinion of the other people.

Seriously though, I think most french people would prefer a diplomacy based on human rights, at least moreso than Sarkozy's diplomacy has been in past years. Whether this translates in interventionism or not depends on how things are presented. If people see Gaddafi killing thousands of people and have the impression that we could do something to stop him, they will support intervention easily IMO. Of course, if it is presented as an "American imperialist crusade" like Irak (a label which has since, unfairly, been associated with Afghanistan), it will be totally different...

Well, indeed most french would support Human Rights and all, but it's like saying most French would support peace in the World and disappearing of poverty. French can also be flattered if they are told our foreign policy will be driven by Human Rights, but outside of those general rhetoric, I'm not sure at all they would make some interventionist demands generally speaking. They won't oppose a thing like Libya since there is a lot of arguments for it, but I'm not sure they would have been a demand for it, in the same way that generally speaking there isn't a demand about that in France, when you look at it, it seems that foreign policy matters very less to French people.

Seems that French globally trusted the President in that realm along the years, and that since the end of decolonization (Algeria), which technically wasn't really foreign policy either, there hasn't been much controversy about it. The fact that French presidents rarely followed the hazardous US imperialist moves might have helped, even for a case like Afghanistan, for which there can be a very legitimate controversy, people didn't oppose it, and don't really know what to think about it today, though they would be more and more wondering what the hell we're doing here.

As for the situation in Libya, not sure what's the worth of it, but a reporter in Tripoli said that rebels would really be entering in the city. Yesterday they were at the gate of it, but had been countered by an heavy fire from Gaddafi forces, who would have apparently put a lot of forces there, which might mean that there would be less behind this city, and anyhow air strikes can counter their moves if they try to go out of cities. Then, if rebels succeed to take Ajdabiya, it could be a decisive victory maybe.

[opebo]

Perhaps I missed it, but why are the French, of all the nations participating, so jumpin ugly about blowing Gaddafi to smithereens?

It's very indelicate, very un-French-like.

Because Sarkozy's in political trouble.

[bgwah]

...He's been in power over 40 years, husbanded his country to great prosperity, and is supported by a large number of Libyans.  He is certainly more legitimate than the clients of France, UK, and America.

Non-sense!

bgwah, the link you provided shows Libya to have a very high 'Human Development Index', so it would seem to refute your characterization of my post as 'nonsense'.

I was being sarcastic.

[opebo]

...He's been in power over 40 years, husbanded his country to great prosperity, and is supported by a large number of Libyans.  He is certainly more legitimate than the clients of France, UK, and America.

Non-sense!

bgwah, the link you provided shows Libya to have a very high 'Human Development Index', so it would seem to refute your characterization of my post as 'nonsense'.

I was being sarcastic.

I see that now, but it is unusual to use sarcasm in support of your interlocutor.

[Хahar 🤔]

But the point is that there is something in the French mentalities that tends to believe that, every time there's something bad in the world, France should just fix it. Or at least that the role of French diplomacy is to serve the interests of oppressed people worldwide.

It's very amusing that the French of all people think this about their country.

[J. J.]

Some progress reported outside of Benghazi, at Ajdabiya.  The rebels crossed the desert and entered the city.

[Mr. Morden]

Wikipedia says that Al Arabiya confirms the rumor that Gaddafi's youngest son has died in the conflict:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khamis_al-Gaddafi

Though I can't actually read the news story that they reference, as I don't read Arabic.

[John Dibble]

Some progress reported outside of Benghazi, at Ajdabiya.  The rebels crossed the desert and entered the city.

Reports are now that they've recaptured Ajdabiya, with Gaddafi's forces retreating towards Brega.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Libyan+rebels+rout+Gadhafi+forces+strategic+town/4508698/story.html

[J. J.]

Some progress reported outside of Benghazi, at Ajdabiya.  The rebels crossed the desert and entered the city.

Reports are now that they've recaptured Ajdabiya, with Gaddafi's forces retreating towards Brega.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Libyan+rebels+rout+Gadhafi+forces+strategic+town/4508698/story.html

Sort of.  They are in, but they still have Qaddafi troops fighting in the city.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Ajdabiya fully freed this morning, and now Brega too!

Some France24 reporters are there and confirms the 'new city' of Brega is fully freed, and some inhabitants of the city say that the 'old city' in which tough fights happened is now freed too.

For Ajdabiya seems rebels significantly benefited of coalition strikes which significantly destroyed some heavy military equipment of Gaddafi forces, well, killed some of those too, others had fled in Brega, but now that city is freed too, Gaddafi forces in that region would become in more and more bad shape.

Party in Brega.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Great ! I know it's something absolutely silly, stupid and meaningless to say, but momentum is back on the rebels' side.

[afleitch]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/26/libya-woman-silenced-accusing-gaddafi-forces-rape

"Iman al-Obeidi was quickly manhandled and arrested by security officials – an extraordinary spectacle for the journalists staying in the luxurious hotel-cum-media centre, hemmed in by severe restrictions on their movements and fed barely credible information.

The scene – filmed by several of those present – unfolded when Obeidi entered the Ocaliptus dining room and lifted up her abaya (dress) to show a slash and bruises on her right leg. "Look what Gaddafi's men have done to me," she screamed. "Look what they did, they violated my honour."

Distraught and weeping, she was surrounded by reporters and cameramen. Libyan minders pushed and lashed out at the journalists, one of them drawing a gun, another smashing a CNN camera. Two waitresses grabbed knives and threatened Obeidi, calling her "a traitor to Gaddafi".

Obeidi said she had been arrested at a checkpoint in the capital because she is from Benghazi, stronghold of the anti-Gaddafi rebellion in the east. "They swore at me and they filmed me. I was alone. There was whisky. I was tied up. They peed on me." She said she had been raped by 15 men and held for two days.

Charles Clover of the Financial Times, who tried to protect her, was pushed, thrown to the floor and kicked, and Channel 4 correspondent Jonathan Miller was punched."

--------------

Just seen the footage on the news. That poor woman.

[2952-0-0]

From what I hear the rebels aren't exactly saints. There have been reports that former government army soldiers have been abused, and there are also reports that the rebel leadership is doing nothing while people with black skin are being accused of being mercenaries (some are undoubtedly are) and targeted.

[opebo]

Ajdabiya fully freed this morning, and now Brega too!

Oh please.  'Freed'?  Lets get real here - I have seen numerous reports where the rebels were engaging in group muslim prayer.  This revolution isn't going to 'free' anyone.

[The Mikado]

The pace the rebels are moving at makes quite a bit of sense.  Most/all of their vehicles are stolen Qaddafi ones.  It would be quite embarrassing to get ahead of themselves and see their forces demolished by a Coalition friendly fire incident.

[J. J.]

The pace the rebels are moving at makes quite a bit of sense.  Most/all of their vehicles are stolen Qaddafi ones.  It would be quite embarrassing to get ahead of themselves and see their forces demolished by a Coalition friendly fire incident.

Friendly fire incidents happen with the best ground to air communications.

[Gustaf]

Ajdabiya fully freed this morning, and now Brega too!

Oh please.  'Freed'?  Lets get real here - I have seen numerous reports where the rebels were engaging in group muslim prayer.  This revolution isn't going to 'free' anyone.

Yes, especially since Gadaffi would never implement sharia law or base his political philosophy on Islam*.

And, did you watch the clip of the woman who was gangraped? I'm curious as to whether you think she deserved it because she was a Libyan and it's part of their culture to gangrape women or simply because she's a woman and they all have it coming?

*Since I know you're not too good with picking up on jokes and sarcasm and the like, I should perhaps make clear that that was sarcasm - Gadaffi replaced the old law in Libya with sharia law when he took over and his political philosophy is Islamic socialism.