Breaking: AP on Clinton emails (user search)
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  Breaking: AP on Clinton emails (search mode)
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Author Topic: Breaking: AP on Clinton emails  (Read 4141 times)
SillyAmerican
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« on: January 29, 2016, 06:43:55 PM »

It doesn't mean they were top secret when she sent them...

Continuing the narrative of "the messages weren't marked top secret, so Hillary did nothing wrong". Folks, Clinton was the Secretary of State, which means she acts as a classifying authority. Yes, this means she is able to determine when the content of a message rises to the level of top secret. Do you understand?

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SillyAmerican
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« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2016, 06:50:07 PM »

Tons of people from both parties along with the media knew about Hillary's private email during her 4 years of SoS, and nobody gave a sh**t. It was only once she ran for president and they needed a faux scandal to drive their beloved horse race that the NYT drummed this up, with the rest of the media and the GOP opportunists jumping on the bandwagon.

Not exactly true. According to many reliable sources, lots of people within the State Department urged Mrs. Clinton to use government sanctioned communication devices. But Mrs. Clinton is above such petty concerns, so she was able to brush these crazy recommendations aside and go about doing this the proper, Clinton way.

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SillyAmerican
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Posts: 2,052
United States


« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2016, 06:57:57 PM »

It doesn't mean they were top secret when she sent them...

Continuing the narrative of "the messages weren't marked top secret, so Hillary did nothing wrong". Folks, Clinton was the Secretary of State, which means she acts as a classifying authority. Yes, this means she is able to determine when the content of a message rises to the level of top secret. Do you understand?


So this means Clinton, as Secretary of State, is incapable of violating classification laws due to the fact that she is a classifying authority?

No, it means Clinton, as Secretary of State, can't say "this message is not top secret, because it's not stamped top secret". Sorry, but given the fact that she is capable of stamping a message "top secret", and should be able to discern the difference between "top secret" content and other content, saying "the message wasn't stamped" doesn't cut it. It's also curious, all those reports about her advising people to remove troublesome message headers, you know, the ones that might serve to indicate the sensitive nature of its contents...
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SillyAmerican
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Posts: 2,052
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« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2016, 07:15:30 PM »

Are you seriously arguing with someone named SillyAmerican?

This coming from someone posting as "Landslide Lyndon"? People living in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks...
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SillyAmerican
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Posts: 2,052
United States


« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2016, 07:27:01 PM »

One thing that seems weird is how emails which were not classified when it was sent to Clinton's email server could then become top secret later on.  

But see, therein lies the problem: if a top secret message is sent to the Secretary of State, but happens to end up on her private email server, who's responsible for the security of that message?
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SillyAmerican
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Posts: 2,052
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« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2016, 07:33:07 PM »

Okay, but if it was not classified as top secret, then it was not a crime to send it unsecured. It is not a question of whether or not Clinton should have classified something as top secret. If she did not do so, then it was not top secret, so she did not mishandle top secret information.

Yes, but if what you're saying is correct, then any of the messages on Mrs. Clinton's server should be able to be viewed by anyone. Unfortunately, from what I've been reading, the FBI is not able to let certain lawmakers read through some of the email messages, given their sensitive nature.
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SillyAmerican
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« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2016, 07:41:56 PM »

Those interested might find this write up about the classification process interesting...

https://pando.com/2013/06/12/explainer-how-exactly-does-something-become-classified-in-the-first-place/
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SillyAmerican
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Posts: 2,052
United States


« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2016, 08:33:00 PM »

Okay, but if it was not classified as top secret, then it was not a crime to send it unsecured. It is not a question of whether or not Clinton should have classified something as top secret. If she did not do so, then it was not top secret, so she did not mishandle top secret information.

Ah, the chicken/egg defense. If information is potentially damaging to national security, but is not stamped "top secret", it's not wrong to disclose it, right? I mean, how could that pose a problem, given that the info wasn't stamped?
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SillyAmerican
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« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2016, 08:51:02 PM »

Yes, because other people besides the Secretary of State can classify the communications as top secret, and have apparently now done so. They are classified now, but they were not classified before. Whether Clinton should have used better judgment and classified them before is a separate issue, but she did not, therefore she did not commit a crime.

Interesting. So are you saying that information whose disclosure could be potentially damaging to the security of the United States can be passed around freely, so long as it has not been stamped/classified? Or are you saying that these "other" people who somehow have reached the conclusion that the information in question might need to be classified did so on the basis of information not available to the Secretary? Or perhaps there was an honest difference of opinion on whether or not this information should be classified?

And please note that an indictment is not the same as a conviction; others would still have to answer the question of whether or not she committed a crime.
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SillyAmerican
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Posts: 2,052
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« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2016, 01:59:04 AM »

Why don't you just post the statute that you think she has violated?

Alright. But I'm not trying the government's case, just telling you what might have been violated, per your question. Nor am I making any comments about the ability of Mrs. Clinton's former boss to put pen to paper and make the whole thing go away.

Anyway, based on what I've read (and I'm sure most people already know this), here are the various problem areas for Mrs. Clinton:

(1) 18 U.S.C. § 793 (Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information), § 798 (Disclosure of classified information). A federal prosecutor would naturally focus first on the most serious allegations: willfully transmitting and/or retaining Top Secret and Compartmented (TS/SCI) material using a private server system. The individual who transmits and the individual who receives and retains TS/SCI information on a private server jointly share the culpability for risking the compromise and exploitation of the information by hostile intelligence services. The prosecutor's charging document would likely include felony counts under 18 U.S.C. § 793 and under 18 U.S.C. § 798 against each transmitting individual as well as separate counts against each receiving/retaining individual. Violation of either provision of the U.S.C. cited above is a felony with a maximum prison term of ten years. The prohibited conduct is the insecure transmission of highly classified information, as well as the receipt and retention of highly classified information in an unapproved manner. The requisite mens rea is the willful commission of the prohibited conduct and the knowledge that compromised information could result in prejudice or injury to the United States or advantage to any foreign nation. Proof of intent to disclose the classified information is not required.

(2) 18 U.S.C § 1924 (Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material). If federal prosecutors are in a charitable mood and an accused person has been cooperative, the felony charges under 18 U.S.C. § 793 and 18 U.S.C. § 798 may be "pled-down" to a single or to multiple misdemeanor counts under 18 U.S.C. § 1924. A misdemeanor conviction would probably result in a period of probation and a less significant fine. The prohibited conduct is the unauthorized removal of classified information from government control or its retention in an unauthorized location. The mens rea required is the intent to remove from government control or the intent to store the classified information in an unauthorized location.

(3) 18 U.S.C. § 2071(b) (Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally). To sustain a charge under 18 U.S.C. § 2071(b), a federal prosecutor need only prove that the accused transferred and held the only copies of official government records (whether classified or not), the very existence of which was concealed from government records custodians. The mens rea required is that an accused knows that official government records were transferred or removed from the control of government records custodians. Violation of 18 U.S.C. § 2071(b) is a felony with a maximum prison term of three years.

(4) 18 U.S.C. § 641 (Public money, property or records). Like point #2. if the federal prosecutors are in a charitable mood and the accused has been cooperative, the felony charges under 18 U.S.C. § 2071(b) can be "pled down" to a misdemeanor under 18 U.S.C. § 641. The prohibited conduct is the conversion of official records (whether classified or not) to the accused’s exclusive use and the mens rea is simply the intent to do so. Conviction on the lesser misdemeanor charge would likely result in a period of probation and the imposition of a fine.

(5) 18 U.S.C. § 1505 (Obstruction of proceedings before departments, agencies, and committees). If it can be proven that an accused destroyed, withheld, or concealed the existence of official records being sought under subpoena by a committee of Congress, the accused can be convicted of obstruction under 18 U.S.C. § 1505. The prohibited conduct includes destruction, concealment and withholding of documents, thereby impeding or obstructing the committee’s rightful pursuit of information. The mens rea is knowledge of the committee’s interest in obtaining the official records in the accused’s custody or control. Violation of 18 U.S.C. § 1505 is a felony with a maximum prison term of five years.

(6) 18 U.S.C. § 1519 (Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in federal investigations). If it can be proven that an accused knowingly concealed the existence of official records being sought by the Department of State Inspector General (DOS/IG) or by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), such accused can be convicted of obstruction. The prohibited conduct is the concealment and withholding of documents that impede or obstruct an investigation. The mens rea is the intent to conceal or withhold. Violation of 18 U.S.C. § 1519 is a felony with a maximum prison term of twenty years.

(7) 18 U.S.C. § 1031 (Fraud against the United States), § 1343 (Fraud by wire, radio or television), § 1346 (Definition of "scheme or artifice to defraud"), § 371 (Conspiracy to defraud the United States). If it can be proven that an accused arranged for the Department of State to hire an Information Technology (IT) specialist to primarily administer and maintain a private server system owned by the accused, then the accused can be convicted of conspiracy to commit honest services fraud and probably wire fraud. The prohibited conduct is having the United States pay an employee salary and/or official travel funds for performing private services on behalf of accused. The mens rea is simply the knowledge of the employee’s status as a public servant and that the government was not fully reimbursed for the costs to the government of such services. The wire fraud conviction can be sought if it can be proven that accused used electronic means of communication in undertaking such scheme or artifice to defraud.

(8 ) 18 U.S.C. § 371 (Conspiracy to commit a federal offense). If any accused and any third party can be proven to have colluded in any violation of federal, criminal law, then all involved can be charged with criminal conspiracy as well as being charged with the underlying offense.

(9) 44 U.S.C. § 3106 (Unlawful removal, destruction of records). "The head of each Federal agency shall notify the Archivist of any actual, impending, or threatened unlawful removal, defacing, alteration, or destruction of records in the custody of the agency of which he is the head that shall come to his attention, and with the assistance of the Archivist shall initiate action through the Attorney General for the recovery of records he knows or has reason to believe have been unlawfully removed from his agency, or from another Federal agency whose records have been transferred to his legal custody. In any case in which the head of the agency does not initiate an action for such recovery or other redress within a reasonable period of time after being notified of any such unlawful action, the Archivist shall request the Attorney General to initiate such an action, and shall notify the Congress when such a request has been made." The law requires heads of agencies, including the Department of State, to preserve and turn over all official correspondence and records to the National Archives. Mrs. Clinton failed to do that until after a Romanian hacker leaked her email correspondence with Sidney Blumenthal. Those emails were clearly official in nature, and not "private" like Mrs. Clinton would have us believe.

(10) The Freedom of Information Act (FOIA). Veterans for a Strong America has already filed a lawsuit against the State Department over potential violations of FOIA, specifically related to the Secretary's records from the night before and the day after the Benghazi incident. With the lawsuit, Veterans for a Strong America joins the government watchdog Judicial Watch and The Associated Press in challenging the State Department over its handling of FOIA requests for Clinton documents.

(11) Executive Order 13526. This order prescribes a uniform system for classifying, safeguarding, and declassifying national security information, including information relating to defense against transnational terrorism. By using a private email system, Secretary Clinton violated the Federal Records Act and the State Department’s Foreign Affairs Manual regarding records management, and worse, could have left classified and top secret documents vulnerable to cyber attack.

(12) The 2009 National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) § 1236.22. This states that "agencies that allow employees to send and receive official electronic mail messages using a system not operated by the agency must ensure that Federal records sent or received on such systems are preserved in the appropriate agency record keeping system." Mrs. Clinton's email messages appear to have been maintained outside the prescribed agency record keeping system.
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SillyAmerican
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Posts: 2,052
United States


« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2016, 02:18:05 AM »

Not exactly true. According to many reliable sources, lots of people within the State Department urged Mrs. Clinton to use government sanctioned communication devices. But Mrs. Clinton is above such petty concerns, so she was able to brush these crazy recommendations aside and go about doing this the proper, Clinton way.



That doesn't contradict what I said at all. People may have originally urged her to do so, but she chose not to, and literally nobody cared after the decision was made. Until she ran for president.

Ah, so you're saying that we hold people running for the highest office in the land to a higher standard than somebody who's not? And that it's perfectly understandable that questions like these are asked of a person seeking the presidency? Well, I completely agree with you; thank you for clarifying your point.
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SillyAmerican
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« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2016, 02:45:34 AM »

All I can say is that if the Reagan administration could get away with selling arms to Middle Eastern terrorists and then diverting the funds to Central American terrorists,  and if the Bush administration could get away with warrantless wiretapping programs, the leaking of a CIA agent's name for political reasons, and a policy of torture that was sanctioned by the highest levels,

Then I really don't care about the concern trolling from the Right (and the Left, for that matter) about Hillary Clinton's use of email. Keep some perspective, folks.

Let's be clear about what you're saying: if the person involved was named Condoleezza Rice or Colin Powell, you'd care? But for Hillary Clinton, you can't be bothered?

And just to understand your position better, you're saying that during the Iran Contra affair, the Reagan administration wasn't investigated thoroughly by Congress and the Tower Commission? And that the Bush administration had no business making use of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) that was introduced in May of 1977 by Senator Ted Kennedy, and was signed into law by President Carter the following year?

I understand your objections with regard to the leaking of a CIA agent's name for political reasons; people should have served prison time for that one. And the use of torture was clearly wrong. But saying you don't care what Hillary did because she has a D next to her name instead of an R? That would make you the silly one, not me.
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SillyAmerican
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Posts: 2,052
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« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2016, 02:48:24 AM »

>Implying Secretary of State of the United States of America is some unimportant job with low standards

There's no reason why a SoS shouldn't be held to the same standard as a president. This is all faux outrage. If anyone really cared and was DEEPLY, DEEPLY concerned we'd have heard about in 2009. Yet nary a peep. But SoS isn't an elected position. The media and the GOP had no incentive to drive down her poll numbers. Until she ran for president.

You might have been able to make the case for faux outrage prior to the FBI beginning its investigation, but at this point, that really doesn't hold water.
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