The Present Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread

[dead0man]

Aside from that, of course dead0man is for the most part wrong

I don't think I've stated facts that were incorrect.  I would hope not anyway.  I'd be interested to know if I have.

(unless you just think my conclusions are wrong....)

[dead0man]

There has been an "undeclared" ceasefire agreed upon while talks continue.

Hamas has agreed to let the idea of a seaport go in the truce talks if they can get the PA to monitor the border with Egypt.  Not sure why they think that would be any better, as neither PA nor Egypt desires a re-armed Hamas and pals.  Might be easier to bribe a PA border guard than it would one that was a member of the IDF or the Egyptian Army I guess.

Also, if their (Hamas) demands are not met by Sunday they are going to attack Tel Aviv.  Whatever that means.

[dead0man]

The IDF's favorite song right now

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They like it because of sh**tty translation to Hebrew is comical.  Because it's oddly catchy, yet very hardcore in the lyrics.  It reminds them what kind of monsters they are fighting.  As a bonus, it probably puts a sand in Hamas's vagina as they are the ones that released this pop song of hate.

[dead0man]

There has been an "undeclared" ceasefire agreed upon while talks continue.

Hamas has agreed to let the idea of a seaport go in the truce talks if they can get the PA to monitor the border with Egypt.  Not sure why they think that would be any better, as neither PA nor Egypt desires a re-armed Hamas and pals.  Might be easier to bribe a PA border guard than it would one that was a member of the IDF or the Egyptian Army I guess.

More info on the deal....
1.fishing rights extended for Gaza
2.letting Palestinians pass between Gaza and the West Bank via the Erez crossing
3.PA to monitor the Philidelphi Route and the Rafah border crossing
4.Israel to monitor "stuff" coming in via the Kerem Shalom border crossing
5.the PA taking Qatar's money and giving it directly to the long unpaid state employees in Gaza (or closely monitoring as Hamas hands it out)
6.IDF gets to patrol the "no man's land" to make sure there are no more tunnels

If Hamas isn't allowed to rearm, we might actually stop seeing a repeat of the same sh**t every 18 months.  Lets all pray to the gods of our choosing that they are not allowed to rearm.

edit

7. release of the prisoners (re)caught in the first days of the conflict (not sure if all, most, many or some)

edit the second

8.Israel's Minister of Justice, Tzipi Livni, is trying to get funds from the US, EU and UN to rebuild Gaza if assurances can be made that they won't be used to rearm

[dead0man]

Despite what the bigots and the "others" say, Israel just wants peace.  If Hamas isn't allowed to rearm, there will be peace and in a few years if people like Salam Fayyad are allowed to take a bigger role, there will even be functioning government(s), making life better for everybody.  At least until ISIS gets there.

[dead0man]

There has been an "undeclared" ceasefire agreed upon while talks continue.

Hamas has agreed to let the idea of a seaport go in the truce talks if they can get the PA to monitor the border with Egypt.  Not sure why they think that would be any better, as neither PA nor Egypt desires a re-armed Hamas and pals.  Might be easier to bribe a PA border guard than it would one that was a member of the IDF or the Egyptian Army I guess.

Also, if their (Hamas) demands are not met by Sunday they are going to attack Tel Aviv.  Whatever that means.

Are you so ideological blinded, that you don't get that the major reason that Hamas want the blockade to end, is to be able to develop Gaza, right now the import of cement are limited by Israel at a point, where they need not only to rebuild after the Israel bombing and bombardment of them, but they also need to deal with growing population. Beside that Gaza suffer from chronic lack of energy, which mean that they suffer from daily power outs, and an end to the blockade would also mean that Gazans could work abroad, which would bring much needed capital into Gaza. also at last and not least it would allow Gaza to develop Gaza commercial.

If only that were true.  Hamas has spent many MILLIONS of dollars, using child slave labor, to build tunnels to murder civilians.  If they wanted to improve Gaza they could use that money to make things better instead of trying to murder.  The concrete they do get in doesn't go into fixing sh**t, no it, like their children, go into the tunnels.  I can't understand how ideologically blind a person must be to ignore the evidence.

If Gaza grows up and stops the violence and Israel maintains the blockade, I'll be next to you at the rallies against them.

[dead0man]

If only that were true.  Hamas has spent many MILLIONS of dollars, using child slave labor, to build tunnels to murder civilians.  If they wanted to improve Gaza they could use that money to make things better instead of trying to murder.  The concrete they do get in doesn't go into fixing sh**t, no it, like their children, go into the tunnels.  I can't understand how ideologically blind a person must be to ignore the evidence.

THAT is false. Like I said, only 15-20% of Hamas's budget goes to military operations.

http://www.newstatesman.com/books/2007/05/hamas-palestinian-israel

Well, no, what I said is not false.  I made no reference to percentages.  Hamas has spent $30mil and used 600,000 tons of concrete on the tunnels.  From a post I made 2 weeks ago.link-Institute for Palestine Studies

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Oddly (or not) it seems that place has removed that rather long and well researched article.  You can still see it referenced all over the internet, but the Institute for Palestine Studies has killed the link.

As for the budget, they haven't paid their own employees for years.  They haven't paid the Israeli electric companies for...ever.  Gaza was crumbling long before the current mess....but they've built lots tunnels!

So far no evidence that any of the tunnels where aimed at civilian villages but rather for army outposts.

Conceded.  Some of them are "aimed" towards small villages but all uses of tunnels during the conflict have been aimed at the IDF.

[dead0man]

link

A 24hr extension to cease fire to hammer out the details.  Looks like the peace will hold....reports for the truce include:
1. The Erez and Kerem Shalom crossings will be opened permanently, with building materials allowed to enter under international supervision.

2. The area allowed for fishing in Gaza waters will be expanded from 6 to 9 miles, and then to 12 miles (as Hamas demanded) within 6 months.

3. Gaza’s electrical crisis will be solved within a year.

4. A principled agreement was reached to build a seaport in Gaza, a matter to be discussed in a month.

5. The release of Palestinian prisoners will be discussed one month from the signing of the agreement.


Of course this will only work if the hotheads can keep from firing rockets, hopefully the PA and the west can keep them from rearming, but I'm not going to hold my breath.  The PRC and Islamic Jihad both said they were going to fire rockets if the cease fire is extended with no truce.

[dead0man]

Color me not surprised.

[dead0man]

Settlers' dogs attack Palestinian children.

You are literally posting from a website run by the Iranian government with support from Neo-Nazi website Veterans Today, that has in the past claimed that Israel and American Jews were behind 9/11.

Press TV and Russia Today are far more reliable sources than the Western Imperialist Propaganda™ you swallow on a daily basis, sheep.

Excellent parody of a crazy person!

[dead0man]

On average, there has been a rocket fired every 10 minutes since the last ceasefire was broken by Hamas.

[dead0man]

“The missiles that are now being launched against Israel, each and every missile constitutes a crime against humanity, whether it hits or misses, because it is directed at civilian targets,”

[dead0man]

“The missiles that are now being launched against Israel, each and every missile constitutes a crime against humanity, whether it hits or misses, because it is directed at civilian targets,”

I don't recall you being particularly hot and bothered when UN schools were getting shelled. I think your problem is that you are more upset by a Palestinian rocket that kills zero Israeli civilians than you are by Israeli artillery that kills multiple Palestinian civilians because on some possibly subconscious level you view Israeli lives as being inherently more valuable.

And you've always been more upset with da Juice than you have Hamas, despite Hamas being the one that keeps breaking the ceasefire...do you know how many more Gazans would be alive today if Hamas had not broken the first ceasefire?  A lot of Gazans know.

[dead0man]

Do you know how many more Gazans would be alive if Hamas had not broken the first ceasefire?

[dead0man]

Do you know how many more Gazans would be alive if Hamas had not broken the first ceasefire?

That Hamas is evil is not at issue here. Yes, they are a gang of fanatics, who don´t much care about the lives of their people. No dispute there.

However, the point is, they have been quite successfully neutralized years ago. The disparity in actual military and intelligence capacity is so humongous, that these day a pretty much necessary precondition for them to be able to hurt any Israeli is for Israel to send troops into Gaza (occasional rocket escaping the shield notwithstanding - pretty much anybody living in any big city in the world, probably, has a higher chance of being murdered while strolling in the park, than an Israeli has of being hit by that rocket). Israel is completely in control of the situation. Hence, it is pretty much irrelevant what Hamas is. Yes, they are SOB´s - and they do not, really, threaten anybody, except for their own people.

Except the only reason so few people die is because they all, every one of them Jew, Arab, whatever have to run for their lives and hide in bunkers.  It's freaking amazing so few have died.  You've got to be impressed with that.  It's also got to be hell on them.  Netanyahu doesn't launch those rockets.  Hamas and pals do.  From the parking lots of schools, from the backyards of families, across the street from hotels.  The leadership of Israel can not (and should not be expected to by outsiders) sit on their hands and do nothing.  It's quite stupid to expect them to.

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and that's some mighty funked up thinking by you.

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So you're saying that if Hamas hadn't broken the first ceasefire Israel would have still killed a thousand Palestinians?  That's is complete bull spit and if you honestly believe that I don't know why I'm wasting my time.

[dead0man]

The rockets can and have reached Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, and other places not in the low density area around the strip.  Nearly everybody in Israel lives their lives waiting for the next alarm.

And yeah, the Iron Dome is great, but it's not perfect and there are ways to defeat it and you can be sure the bad guys* are working on ways to do just that.


*it is good to have some people on the other side acknowledge that Hamas are, in fact, horrible people....some over there like to freak out when I say "bad guy" as if Hamas isn't full of racist asshole murderers.

[dead0man]

In the same way me and Micheal Jordan are both basketball players.

[dead0man]

*it is good to have some people on the other side acknowledge that Hamas are, in fact, horrible people....some over there like to freak out when I say "bad guy" as if Hamas isn't full of racist asshole murderers.

It'd be fantastic if some people on the 'another side' was admitting that the guy who orders indiscriminate retaliatory attacks which cause thousands of civil casualties is very very bad. I know that's asking too much, 0 straw man.

and people that pay so little attention that they think the retaliatory strikes are indiscriminate aren't really worth listening to, <insert lame insult here>.

[dead0man]

So you're saying that if Hamas hadn't broken the first ceasefire Israel would have still killed a thousand Palestinians?  That's is complete bull spit and if you honestly believe that I don't know why I'm wasting my time.

Well, you ARE wasting your time.

Agreed.

[dead0man]

You think Israel would have killed a thousand plus Gazans had Hamas not broken the first ceasefire, I ain't acknowledging that you know the difference between your ass and a bucket of chicken.

[dead0man]

Admittedly, I didn't pay attention to most of your posts on here, but FTR I've read the other day some article you linked from The Times of Israel. The best thing that I can say is "internal consumption propaganda", which has little to do with what's reporting various international media and other people on the ground.

k

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Obviously, and I've never even hinted at anything otherwise.  I don't know why this keeps coming up.

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Hamas is bad guys, and to put them in same league as Israel (or whatever party there you perceive I have some alliance with....which I find hilarious by the way.  I don't know all that much about internal Israeli politics.) is offensive to anybody that is paying attention and isn't blinded by the "strong vs weak" spiel so many like to preach.

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Of course and again, I've never suggested otherwise and I'm not sure why this too keeps coming up as an argument.

There is a word for arguments like that, any idea what it is?

[dead0man]

He ain't that bad, certainly better than some of the other posters in this thread.

[dead0man]

Only if Hamas is allowed to rearm.

[dead0man]

Ok, lets go with "Only if assholes living in Gaza are allowed to rearm".  Better?

[dead0man]

Ok, lets go with "Only if assholes living in Gaza are allowed to rearm".  Better?

Unfortunately, I am afraid that you would be wrong even if Gaza simply disappeared tomorrow with all of its inhabitants. You still would have the West Bank. And I will be very pleasantly surprised if there is not another war there within reasonably short time: as far as I can see, the pressure-cooker there is not getting much relief.

That is even if we forget that the probability that some, as you call them "assholes", in Gaza will "rearm" (to the extent they are "armed" now) is pretty much 100% - at least, as long as Gaza is in its current state.

The problem is that the underlying causes of this conflict are not at all addressed at present. There is nothing that happened in the last few months that will decrease the probability of another similar conflict in reasonably short term. It was a complete waste of human lives - it pretty much changed nothing.

Indeed.  As long as Israel exists there will be bigots wanting it not to exist.  Bigots more than willing to kill themselves, their children and their neighbors to reach that goal.  Peace won't come until those bigots are dead or educated.