Gays in the Military?

[7,052,770]

Of course gays should be allowed in the military, and should be allowed to discuss their gayness with fellow soldiers if they want, just as straight soldiers discuss their straightness.

If any type of relationship, homosexual or heterosexual, is interfering with military service, then something should be done about it.

[Dr. Cynic]

I have friends and family in the military. Active duty means nothing as a great deal of their time is spent BBQing and Drinking... What makes that better or more responsible than a nice stiff one?

It doesn't. Frankly, if they're gay and want to join, I say let them. If they want to, fine, because there's no way I'm going. If you're gay and can shoot, then you're just as qualified as a straight person. If they want to talk about it, let 'em. Who gives a damn?

[Ban my account ffs!]

I have several friends in the military.  One of my best friends is in the Marines and he is married to another of my best friends.. he's served 2 tours in Iraq, the first during the battle in Fallujah where we was a grunt kicking in doors in the houses in the city.  He was injured by an IED while on a patrol in April 2005 and negligence from the military doctors have left him with a permanent disability in his ankles.  He actually got diagnosed by a civilian doctor and paid out of pocket for it as having fractures in his ankles.. and now he has had several surgeries and has extreme pain if he has to walk for more than, oh, 30 minutes at a time.

Another friend of mine joined the army, and he has served 2 lengthy tours in Iraq and he had plenty of "free time" to do whatever he wanted.

The other friend of mine joined the Navy... and he has basically spent his time on active duty telling southeast Asian strippers to spit out the colored ball of his choice out of their private parts.

If a gay man or a lesbian join the military, your discomfort is YOUR problem.  If that discomfort is so bad that you must act on it and do something to a gay member of the military, you should be dishonorably discharged and thrown in jail.

On the other hand, relationships with fellow troops that affects your ability to do what you're supposed to be doing should be assessed and you should be disciplined.

This isn't entirely comparable to the religion/race card because a Christian wouldn't necessarily get into an emotional relationship with another Christian based purely on religion and suffer the problems that comes with that if one of them were injured.

I can see where "don't ask/don't tell" is the easy way out... but off of the battle field there is no reason you should have to hide your sexuality.

[Ebowed]

Does Don't Ask/Don't Tell directly discriminate against someone from a liberal state who has a gay marriage/civil union contract?  Since their orientation is out in the open.

[Verily]

Does Don't Ask/Don't Tell directly discriminate against someone from a liberal state who has a gay marriage/civil union contract?  Since their orientation is out in the open.

It's probably precedentless; there aren't more than maybe ten thousand same-sex marriages in Massachusetts so far (plus one in Iowa and a handful in New York and California), and fewer civil unions elsewhere. At least so far same-sex marriages tend to occur at later ages than opposite-sex marriages (probably because of people waiting for decades), which makes it relatively unlikely than anyone married to someone of the same sex has yet applied to join the military. If they did, the military would have to make a decision on whether that violated DADT, but it seems ambiguous to me.

[Gustaf]

I have to say that, rare as it is, I think DWTL has something of a point here, even though he hasn't expressed it very well. That is, in combat units (indeed, in many civilian work-places) you're not allowed to have sexual relations because it may affect your judgement and the internal dynamic of the group. That wouldn't have anything to do with discrimination. But it would of course be a general rule, not necessarily linked to sexual orientation.

And, no, I have nothing against gays in the military.

[Ban my account ffs!]

I have to say that, rare as it is, I think DWTL has something of a point here, even though he hasn't expressed it very well. That is, in combat units (indeed, in many civilian work-places) you're not allowed to have sexual relations because it may affect your judgement and the internal dynamic of the group. That wouldn't have anything to do with discrimination. But it would of course be a general rule, not necessarily linked to sexual orientation.

And, no, I have nothing against gays in the military.

What you made is a refined argument that makes sense based on what DWTL said.  DWTL made it sound like they simply shouldn't be having sex and that it is the government's business to know since it's on the government's dime.

Banning intimate relationships within your unit while on active duty as a way to keep the emotions of the soldiers in that unit from suffering any more than they already are makes sense.  Banning sex for the sake of banning sex does not.

[AkSaber]

I think it's ridiculous to exclude someone from the military cause of his sexual orientation. Get rid of "Don't ask or tell"

But like it's been said, active duty relationships that disrupt a unit need to be reprimanded.

[MODU]

As Mikey said, there are multiple reasons why Don't Ask, Don't Tell should remain in place at the current time.  In general, I have no problems with Gays in the military, since they'll die for their country just as I would.  However, the social dynamic and unit cohesiveness currently requires gays to keep their life-style choice private.  Not only can it risk an overbearing since of doubt and mistrust with some service members, it can also put  the gay's life at risk if someone with an overwhelming homophobia feels threatened and acts out (which has happened in the past).

[Ban my account ffs!]

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As Mikey said, there are multiple reasons why Don't Ask, Don't Tell should remain in place at the current time.  In general, I have no problems with Gays in the military, since they'll die for their country just as I would.  However, the social dynamic and unit cohesiveness currently requires gays to keep their life-style choice private.  Not only can it risk an overbearing since of doubt and mistrust with some service members, it can also put  the gay's life at risk if someone with an overwhelming homophobia feels threatened and acts out (which has happened in the past).

You have a point, but I must disagree that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, but that is for another thread.

It is a very sad world we live in when gay people have to keep their sexuality a secret lest they offend a homophobe so much that the homophobe has to harm the gay person.

It really makes me sick that people seek to justify harming homosexuals with their homophobia.

Still any service member that harms another service member on the basis of sexuality should be dishonorably discharged as he/she is not fit to serve this country.

[CPT MikeyMike]

It is a very sad world we live in when gay people have to keep their sexuality a secret lest they offend a homophobe so much that the homophobe has to harm the gay person.

It is indeed. I wish I had the magic answer to resolve this. We do cultural awareness, Equal Opportunity and Sexual Harassment training for Soldiers. It needs to do more training regarding Consideration of Others to include homosexuals.

Still any service member that harms another service member on the basis of sexuality should be dishonorably discharged as he/she is not fit to serve this country.

True - Though I would classify that as assault and that service member gets punished under UCMJ action.

Like I said before, Don't Ask, Don't Tell is only for the Soldier's protection. I think there are a lot of people on here that are very naive about military culture and why this needs to be in place. I wish it didn't have to be that way but I foresee it being that away for a while.

As much as I do not have an issue with homosexuality and I though concider it a private issue, if a Soldier came to me to told me he was gay I would still have to pursue UCMJ action because one, it is a UCMJ action and two (and the more critical point), for the Soldiers protection. 

[Person Man]

I think, however, there should be strong penalties if they are found guilty of making sexual advances while on active duty to members of the same sex.

Even if the other person is clearly consenting?

Yes, if it is a unisex unit the purpose is to avoid sexual conduct, therefore, this shouldn't be circumvented by a homosexual love affair.

Yeah, but married couples are allowed to have sex in the military.  Why not gay couples?

It depends on the circumstance, if they are in a gender specific unit, they should not be having sex.

Well, that's really none of your business... so... yeah.  Who are you to decide who should be having sex with whom/what?

Oh yeah.. you're a 16 year old male fundie... what people do with their penis/anus/vagina occupies every moment of your existence.

I was once a 16-year old male catholic....and that's usually how the cracker crumbled. ^^

[Person Man]

What you guys need to know is that a Soldier is government property - on and off duty. If you are going to do something that us against the rules, then be ready to face punishment under UCMJ.

Personally I don't care what Soldiers does in their off time. As long as they are at formation and do their task to the standard, I got no problem with it. However, with that being said, the current "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy needs to stay in place for the safety of those Soldiers who are homosexual. This is not the environment where one should flaunt their sexual preference and that's only for a Soldier's protection.

I respect your professional opinion, but what he is inadvertently discovered to be gay?

[CPT MikeyMike]

What you guys need to know is that a Soldier is government property - on and off duty. If you are going to do something that us against the rules, then be ready to face punishment under UCMJ.

Personally I don't care what Soldiers does in their off time. As long as they are at formation and do their task to the standard, I got no problem with it. However, with that being said, the current "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy needs to stay in place for the safety of those Soldiers who are homosexual. This is not the environment where one should flaunt their sexual preference and that's only for a Soldier's protection.

I respect your professional opinion, but what he is inadvertently discovered to be gay?

Give me an example please.

[Person Man]

What you guys need to know is that a Soldier is government property - on and off duty. If you are going to do something that us against the rules, then be ready to face punishment under UCMJ.

Personally I don't care what Soldiers does in their off time. As long as they are at formation and do their task to the standard, I got no problem with it. However, with that being said, the current "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy needs to stay in place for the safety of those Soldiers who are homosexual. This is not the environment where one should flaunt their sexual preference and that's only for a Soldier's protection.

I respect your professional opinion, but what he is inadvertently discovered to be gay?

Give me an example please.

Like, if he is found with homosexual paraphamilia or got a letter from a homosexual partner from home...

[Joe Republic]

As much as I do not have an issue with homosexuality and I though concider it a private issue, if a Soldier came to me to told me he was gay I would still have to pursue UCML action because one, it is a UCMJ action and two (and the more critical point), for the Soldiers protection. 

I'm unfamiliar with your first reason, but as for the second; if the soldier were to tell you in confidence (hypothetically), then why would you need to ensure his protection from the homophobes by reporting him?  Can't you just keep a secret?

[CPT MikeyMike]

As much as I do not have an issue with homosexuality and I though concider it a private issue, if a Soldier came to me to told me he was gay I would still have to pursue UCMJ action because one, it is a UCMJ action and two (and the more critical point), for the Soldiers protection. 

I'm unfamiliar with your first reason, but as for the second; if the soldier were to tell you in confidence (hypothetically), then why would you need to ensure his protection from the homophobes by reporting him?  Can't you just keep a secret?

It's a tough position. However, I have to report it. That was my reason #1. As much as I disagree with it, I have to report him because homosexuality is in violation with the Uniform Code of Military Justice. I swore to obey the orders and I have to follow the regulations of the UCMJ wheather if I like it or not. Besides, you never know if he tells someone else. Granted if he told me, just like friends have told me when they came out of the closet, I be fine with it.

It's the same deal I have with pot. If you piss hot for pot, you will receive punishment for failing a drug test. As much as I'm personally in favor of legalizing pot, I have to prosecute it because it is against military policy.

[CPT MikeyMike]

What you guys need to know is that a Soldier is government property - on and off duty. If you are going to do something that us against the rules, then be ready to face punishment under UCMJ.

Personally I don't care what Soldiers does in their off time. As long as they are at formation and do their task to the standard, I got no problem with it. However, with that being said, the current "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy needs to stay in place for the safety of those Soldiers who are homosexual. This is not the environment where one should flaunt their sexual preference and that's only for a Soldier's protection.

I respect your professional opinion, but what he is inadvertently discovered to be gay?

Give me an example please.

Like, if he is found with homosexual paraphamilia or got a letter from a homosexual partner from home...

There has to be hard evidence. I actually knew of a situation where a Soldier was using another Soldier's personal computer. Anyhow, he found pics of this Soldier having a foursome (guys and girls) and that Soldier was clearly committing homosexual acts. I never saw the photos but my friend had to do the investigation and she saw outright homosexual acts in those photos. Anyhow he got an honerable discharge in a semi plea bargin. I don't know all of the details.

Again, I would need hard evidence. Say I saw a Soldier using a dildo in his ass. Does that mean he's gay? I know straight guys who like anal simulation so it's not hard evidence there. It's a very hard line to determine.

[True Democrat]

I support implementing a policy of "Don't Ask, Who the hell cares if you tell?"

[Alcon]

There has to be hard evidence. I actually knew of a situation where a Soldier was using another Soldier's personal computer. Anyhow, he found pics of this Soldier having a foursome (guys and girls) and that Soldier was clearly committing homosexual acts. I never saw the photos but my friend had to do the investigation and she saw outright homosexual acts in those photos. Anyhow he got an honerable discharge in a semi plea bargin. I don't know all of the details.

Again, I would need hard evidence. Say I saw a Soldier using a dildo in his ass. Does that mean he's gay? I know straight guys who like anal simulation so it's not hard evidence there. It's a very hard line to determine.

You need hard evidence, but would you also need firm, rock-solid evidence?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

As much as I do not have an issue with homosexuality and I though concider it a private issue, if a Soldier came to me to told me he was gay I would still have to pursue UCMJ action because one, it is a UCMJ action and two (and the more critical point), for the Soldiers protection. 

I'm unfamiliar with your first reason, but as for the second; if the soldier were to tell you in confidence (hypothetically), then why would you need to ensure his protection from the homophobes by reporting him?  Can't you just keep a secret?

It's a tough position. However, I have to report it. That was my reason #1. As much as I disagree with it, I have to report him because homosexuality is in violation with the Uniform Code of Military Justice. I swore to obey the orders and I have to follow the regulations of the UCMJ wheather if I like it or not. Besides, you never know if he tells someone else. Granted if he told me, just like friends have told me when they came out of the closet, I be fine with it.

It's the same deal I have with pot. If you piss hot for pot, you will receive punishment for failing a drug test. As much as I'm personally in favor of legalizing pot, I have to prosecute it because it is against military policy.

I agree here - I'm still in the air about gays in the military, leaning toward allowing them, but you have to follow the rules here, or you yourself could get in trouble for NOT reporting it.

[Joe Republic]

I agree here - I'm still in the air about gays in the military, leaning toward allowing them, but you have to follow the rules here, or you yourself could get in trouble for NOT reporting it.

If gay people were allowed in the military, there would be no need to report anything.

[Willy Woz]

I think gays should be allowed in the military as long as they are required to be blindfolded when their roommates are taking a shower, and have separate beds rather than share.

[Alcon]

I think gays should be allowed in the military as long as they are required to be blindfolded when their roommates are taking a shower, and have separate beds rather than share.

Before I even bother, are you serious?

[Dr. Cynic]

I think gays should be allowed in the military as long as they are required to be blindfolded when their roommates are taking a shower, and have separate beds rather than share.

Before I even bother, are you serious?

Don't bother.