Vegetarians more likely to have mental issues...

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Inspired by Ebowed, I got some veggie burgers, and just had the courage to prepare one. Tasted totally fine.

You win this round.

Veggie burgers are great.  Not comparable to beef burgers really... But are great in their own way.

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Vegetarians who also eat dairy and eggs should have no problem getting all of the necessary nutrients.  Vegetarians who eat dairy also shouldn't have a problem with the addition of a B12 supplement.

Vegans obviously have more issues getting all the right nutrients but probably not any more than your average American because they are more mindful of what they are eating, in general.  B12 is a big one... but that can be sourced from non-animal products now.  

The only thing is ensuring you get enough omega-3 and saturated fats.  Avocado and coconut are two good sources of saturated fats and now they make good omega-3 supplements from algae and seaweed oils that actually absorb well in your system.

It's easier than ever to be a vegan or vegetarian.

That said, we learn more and more about how nutrients break down, how complex they are, and how they interact with our body.  It's kinda like the "three sisters" of Native American lore... they didn't know why... but they knew planting corn, squash, and beans together was beneficial to all three. 

In reality the beans provided nitrogen to the soil that the corn needed... the corn provided a stalk for the beans to climb... and the squash grew between the corn keeping weeds and pests away.

We may find that eating meat and dairy are beneficial in ways we don't yet understand.

In the end, the arguing is just pointless.  Nobody should be forcing anyone to eat a certain way.  That is up to you.

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To the best of my knowledge, the optimal diet is high in protein, high in vegetables, high in fiber and provides all the nutrients your body needs.   

I think that's pretty accurate, and the benefits of grains/fiber cannot be underestimated.

http://www.brown.edu/Student_Services/Health_Services/Health_Education/nutrition_&_eating_concerns/being_a_vegetarian.php

I think that it's certainly possible for a person who is strictly vegetarian to have some vitamin or nutrient deficiencies, which they can quite easily make up for by use of supplements or items that are fortified with what is needed, like calcium in soy/almond/cashew milk. At the end of it, I think a vegetarian diet is going to be way healthier than a high meat, high fried-food diet. But sure, moderation would not necessarily be unhealthy. I eat fish, for e.g., and really like it, especially salmon. But I've cut out all red meat and dairy, and am quite honestly better off.

One of the things that's underplayed, because Americans consume it in gargantuan quantities, is soda. Soda is terrible, and will contribute to a lot of the problems associated with a meaty diet. Like, your body literally does all kinds of things as a reaction to soda, and there are risks that go on and on (sugar, diabetes, heart disease, obesity, and even osteoporosis). It's amazing how bad it really is. It's just sugar, syrup, and seltzer water, and people make it their go-to drink. Ugh. People also salt the hell out of stuff, and the risks to that are well documented (blood pressure, namely).

Also, red (as opposed to black) pepper has many health benefits, so yeah, there are ways to offset the negative side of meat in one's diet.

I think bedstuy was pointing out that a diet low in grains is best.  High in protein and fibrous vegetables.  Don't forget fat, too.  Fat is best at regulating appetite.  Carbs just trigger you to eat more.

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For me personally, I love meat and as such could never go without it for an extended period of time, health issues be damned.  Genesis 9:3 FTW.

Going to ask you the same question I asked Simfan: why do you care about the religious morality here, but not care about the secular ethical issues?  Do you even put the slightest effort into trying to minimize or avoid the suffering associated with your diet?  No disrespect, but it drives me a little crazy to see someone being morally self-satisfied and then categorically ignoring a moral concern.

I know you didn't ask me... but I've begun switching over to more humane meat/eggs/dairy.  Eggs and dairy seem pretty easy... but meat is still pretty hard (and expensive). 

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Another nutrient deficient in the vegan and western diet is vitamin K2.  This vitamin is seeing increased scrutiny by scientists because it may be extremely beneficial in preventing heart disease and cancer... which is pretty huge.

Unfortunately it is almost exclusively available from animal products... they are by far the highest in organ meats.. especially poultry.  But the most complete form comes from beef liver.  (It used to be that a weekly meal of liver and onions was considered good for everyone).

Other good sources:
Hard cheese
Egg yolks
Beef
Chicken
Whole milk
Butter

So the official nutritional guidelines to limit meat and organ consumption and to limit dairy to low fat is actually causing vitamin k2 deficiencies in the western diet.

The only western food commonly consumed based from plants to contain K2 is sauerkraut.  Japanese natto is also a decent source (contains 8 times more than sauerkraut which is a poor source.. but the only western vegan option).

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Another nutrient deficient in the vegan and western diet is vitamin K2.  This vitamin is seeing increased scrutiny by scientists because it may be extremely beneficial in preventing heart disease and cancer... which is pretty huge.

Unfortunately it is almost exclusively available from animal products... they are by far the highest in organ meats.. especially poultry.  But the most complete form comes from beef liver.  (It used to be that a weekly meal of liver and onions was considered good for everyone).

Other good sources:
Hard cheese
Egg yolks
Beef
Chicken
Whole milk
Butter

So the official nutritional guidelines to limit meat and organ consumption and to limit dairy to low fat is actually causing vitamin k2 deficiencies in the western diet.

The only western food commonly consumed based from plants to contain K2 is sauerkraut.  Japanese natto is also a decent source (contains 8 times more than sauerkraut which is a poor source.. but the only western vegan option).

Similarly, can you provide a citation that Vitamin K1 conversion is nutritionally insufficient?  This is something I researched about a month ago, and I don't recall scientific support for this claim, either.

I found a few things:

The human body can convert vitamin K1 into MK-4 (a subset of vitamin k2) which is beneficial for routing calcium from the blood into bones.  It cannot convert any of the other subsets of vitamin K2, including K7, which is potentially very important for preventing calcification of the aorta and preventing bone density loss.

Instead, gut bacteria can convert K1 into various forms of k2.  But this varies widely from person to person based on your gut flora.  

It also means vegans should avoid antibiotics because this can reduce your ability to convert vitamin k1 to k2 by up to 75%.

The main stickler is a study by (Geleijnse et al., 2004) (no link, sorry) that found that while intake of vitamin k2 reduced the risk of osteoperosis and heart disease... intake of vitamin k1 had no impact.  This would suggest that our gut flora don't convert enough vitamin k1 into k2 to have the beneficial impact that dietary k2 can have in regards to those diseases.

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I found a few things:

The human body can convert vitamin K1 into MK-4 (a subset of vitamin k2) which is beneficial for routing calcium from the blood into bones.  It cannot convert any of the other subsets of vitamin K2, including K7, which is potentially very important for preventing calcification of the aorta and preventing bone density loss.

Instead, gut bacteria can convert K1 into various forms of k2.  But this varies widely from person to person based on your gut flora. 

It also means vegans should avoid antibiotics because this can reduce your ability to convert vitamin k1 to k2 by up to 75%.

The main stickler is a study by (Geleijnse et al., 2004) (no link, sorry) that found that while intake of vitamin k2 reduced the risk of osteoperosis and heart disease... intake of vitamin k1 had no impact.  This would suggest that our gut flora don't convert enough vitamin k1 into k2 to have the beneficial impact that dietary k2 can have in regards to those diseases.

This is super weird: that study doesn't appear to be available in any of the common academic databases.  Where did you see it originally?  I've found a few studies that seem to contradict it, so I'd like to see if it addresses them at all in the discussion.

I found it.  It seems here to deal only with coronary heart disease or all cause mortality.  No specifics on osteoperosis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15514282

Abstract:

Vitamin K-dependent proteins, including matrix Gla-protein, have been shown to inhibit vascular calcification. Activation of these proteins via carboxylation depends on the availability of vitamin K. We examined whether dietary intake of phylloquinone (vitamin K-1) and menaquinone (vitamin K-2) were related to aortic calcification and coronary heart disease (CHD) in the population-based Rotterdam Study. The analysis included 4807 subjects with dietary data and no history of myocardial infarction at baseline (1990-1993) who were followed until January 1, 2000. The risk of incident CHD, all-cause mortality, and aortic atherosclerosis was studied in tertiles of energy-adjusted vitamin K intake after adjustment for age, gender, BMI, smoking, diabetes, education, and dietary factors. The relative risk (RR) of CHD mortality was reduced in the mid and upper tertiles of dietary menaquinone compared to the lower tertile [RR = 0.73 (95% CI: 0.45, 1.17) and 0.43 (0.24, 0.77), respectively]. Intake of menaquinone was also inversely related to all-cause mortality [RR = 0.91 (0.75, 1.09) and 0.74 (0.59, 0.92), respectively] and severe aortic calcification [odds ratio of 0.71 (0.50, 1.00) and 0.48 (0.32, 0.71), respectively]. Phylloquinone intake was not related to any of the outcomes. These findings suggest that an adequate intake of menaquinone could be important for CHD prevention.

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I think the portion that reads "We examined whether dietary intake of phylloquinone (vitamin K-1) and menaquinone (vitamin K-2) were related to aortic calcification and coronary heart disease (CHD) in the population-based Rotterdam Study." Should clarify that.

Also further down
"Phylloquinone intake was not related to any of the outcomes. "


Regardless of my claims, you have to admit that a vegan diet cannot get you all of the vital nutrients needed to live a healthy life without artificially made nutritional supplements.  And there is plenty of research that shows many nutrients from supplements are not absorbed readily into the body while they usually are from natural food sources.

Your claim was that the body can adequately convert k1 into k2.  I disagreed and showed you a study contrary to your claims.

In fact, vitamin k2 is seeing higher scrutiny and its low consumption in the western diet could be bad because in order to get enough of it from food rather than supplemental sources would mean going outside of the recommended dietary guidelines which tell us to limit strictly the foods that contain the highest amounts of k2...like butter, hard cheese, whole milk, egg yolks, organ meats, and fattier muscle meats.

More study is needed on the subject because what's there is limited.  But there is at least one robst study that correlates dietary vitamin k2 intake with lower coronary heart disease and lower overall death rates...that simultaneously found no such correlation with dietary intake of vitamin k1. 

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Using the "If I have to kill animals to protect or provide for my family" argument doesn't hold up in the modern world where you can provide for your family by eating a vegan diet plus a couple vitamin supplements and protecting your family simply means doing nothing but seldomly calling 911.

It's all about choice.  I choose to eat meat, eggs, and dairy.  I think such a diet comes completely naturally to me (someone of generally northern European descent).

But I support humane practices and policies that will make those items more expensive in general (not if you're already buying humanely treated meat/eggs/dairy). 

"Animals should have some rights" is so vague.. especially when you give the caveat of what conjurs an image of you traipsing through the woods in animal furs fighting off deadly cougars and bears and bringing the meat to your helpless wife and children back at the lean-to.

We can afford it.  Animals should have the right to humane treatment that allows them to live as stress free as possible.  And our slaughter practices should be painless and swift.

If price becomes an issue for the poor, then we should subsidize such costs with a tax on the wealthy or provide more food stamp allowances.