Hypocritical Germans refuse to aid the countries that aided them

[ingemann]

The debt was forgiven because creditors saw that the country had changed and that forgiveness would play an integral role in an economic boom that the rest of Europe would profit from as well. If all of Greece's debt was forgiven on the other hand, Syriza would begin digging a new hole tomorrow by hiring public sector employees nobody needs while not addressing the underlying factors that make Greece such an unattractive place to invest.

Moreover, why is everybody always focusing on Germany?! It's not like Finland, the Netherlands or a few of the peripheral countries who pitched in when it came to bailing out Greece while enacting their own reforms are particularly crazy about a more lenient stance.

It's easier to hit Germany than demanding that the Dutch or Finns bail out Greece, which would meet even less sympathy.

[ingemann]

Tell me, dear Very Serious People, how has austerity helped Greece enact structural reforms? Unless slashing the minimum wage and stopping to provide basic social services is what you mean by "structural reforms".

So let's say that Greece just get the money, what happens then, dear very unserious person? Have Greece given any kind of indication that they will make any kind of structural reforms, have they given any indication that we can trust their promises?

[ingemann]

Sarcasm or "rigtheous" hysterics don't convince anybody that it's a good idea to send money to Greece, and BTW Antonio; France is the biggest Greek creditor, and that hasn't resulted in the French economy doing incredible well.




So take the ideological glasses off.

Through if we kept them on, we could help many more people if we instead of putting more money in Greece, send them to the Third World instead.

[ingemann]

This may come as a shock to some, but it's not smugness, when you don't trust a known liar and conman. The Greeks need to show they deserve to be trusted, before anybody should trust them again.

As for Syriza, well they're preferable to ND and Pasok, but until they have shown they're not as corrupt as their predecessors, they shouldn't expect that they will just receive money.

[ingemann]

Yaddayadda moral blabla ethics....

How is this relevant for the dsiscussion, I can ignore Snowstalkers misunderstood pop version of the Jantelov (I will get back to that later).

But the whole Austerity discussion have nothing to do with moral or lack of it. If Ebil northern Europe would statuate a example with Greece, they could have been much worse.

I don't envies the Greek, it's not fun to be them right now. But there's several facts. Greece have gotten a much better deal than most debtor nations. The other is even if Greeks debts was not written off, the Greek economy would still be in trouble, because they have a negative balance of payments, their low productivity can't compete with the rest of the Eurozone or EU.

A Keynesian economic policy are often a good idea, but in the Greek case I fail to see how it will help. It will not raise productivity, in fack it will lower it by pushing wages up, it will not give any incentive to reforms. In fact if we look at the Greek economy before the crisis, what we saw was how such economic policies would work in Greece. Keynesian economics are a tool, a very useful tool... so to stay in that terminology let's say it's a hammer, the problem is that the Greek economy need screwdriver.

Still I could defend that Greece got another deal, if they came with a suggestion to how they would improve their economy. Antonio, you're right that it's not your responsability to come with a solution, but at the very least we should expect you to point some kind of solutions suggested by the Greek government, rather than just keep repeating anti-austerity, anti-austerity, anti-austerity, anti-austerity, anti-austerity, anti-austerity, anti-austerity, anti-austerity, anti-austerity ad nauseam.

As for the whole Jantelov, Snowstalker stop using it, when you don't get it. The Jantelov doesn't say I'm better than you, it's others telling you/me/us that you, I and everybody shouldn't believe we're special snowflakes, don't stick you/mine/ours head up. It's simply a way to tell people that they shouldn't believe they're special in any positive way, and it have zero relevance on this discussion. Nobody is after Greece because they're full of themselves or think they're something special, Greece's problem is that they owe money.

[ingemann]

First I will apoligise that I do not fit into some disneyfied American stereotype of Scandinavians. I know it's evil of me not to be a walking liberal stereotype. Second I'm sorry Gustaf and I have destroyed your vision of how Scandinavians should be. Of course I also expect that your view of Norwegians will be destroyed the moment you have interact with some of those.

Second... your stereotype of Scandinavian are warmth and friendliness? Wow I'm impressed with how we ended up with that stereotype, the standard description of us are cold and reserved (unless we drink) among foreigners, and it's centuries old.

[ingemann]

I said 'the least' as an insult to ingemann.  It had nothing to do with geographic size or really Denmark as a country at all.  It has to do with poking pinholes in ingemann's nearly impenetrable ego.

Denmark are less important on the international scene than a very large number of states around the world. Do it expect me to shock me by suggesting that? I'm not from a big state, so telling me that the state I live in are unimportant, is something I'm very aware of and it doesn't hurt my "impenetrable ego" to be told that. In fact one of the nicer cultural traits of being a Dane, are that insults really only hurt as much as we respect or like the person insulting us.

[ingemann]

First I will apoligise that I do not fit into some disneyfied American stereotype of Scandinavians. I know it's evil of me not to be a walking liberal stereotype. Second I'm sorry Gustaf and I have destroyed your vision of how Scandinavians should be. Of course I also expect that your view of Norwegians will be destroyed the moment you have interact with some of those.

Second... your stereotype of Scandinavian are warmth and friendliness? Wow I'm impressed with how we ended up with that stereotype, the standard description of us are cold and reserved (unless we drink) among foreigners, and it's centuries old.

You clearly don't have a grasp on migration to the United States from Scandinavia.  Lots of them came to America and carried their culture and values with them.  The stereotypes have been of being reserved, but very warm and welcoming.

And yes...often times people here get a rude awakening upon visiting 'the old country' since they treat the visitors as outsiders even though they can still visit the farm that the relatives lived on.

But living among the only real non-Scandinavia place with Scandinavian roots that permeate the culture to this day gives you insight...that Scandinavians are generally warm and friendly...despite their desire to come off cold and aloof.

We haven't a desire to come off as coold and aloof, that would be weird, we're just not as touchy feely as some other people and we respect people right to be left alone.

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You're really weird, there's no neurosis, there's just a common understanding that people pretending to be unique butterflies are really irritating, especially when they're not. You may have developed neurosis in "exile" (through I doubt it), like the one where you expert to be seen as fellow Scandinavians when you travel to Scandinavia and don't speak the language. The point about being a nation, a "folk" is that you share language, culture and social mores and if you doesn't, you're a outsider, much more than a emigrant with no Scandinavian ancestory, but who speak the language.

[ingemann]

I think your posting just proves you're a rather unpleasant person.  That's all.

...and you're a cultural imperialist.

[ingemann]

I think your posting just proves you're a rather unpleasant person.  That's all.

...and you're a cultural imperialist.

Yes.  That's what I am.  Now go eat your krabby patties.

What the .... is krabby patties? What do it even mean?