oklahoma 2004

[Joe Biden 2020]

Kerry was just a horrible candidate.

Don't expect the same thing in 2008, though!!  Expect a much more competitive state.

[Joe Biden 2020]

Kerry was just a horrible candidate.

Don't expect the same thing in 2008, though!!  Expect a much more competitive state.

Kerry was an ok candidate. Not great, for sure, but he did almost defeat a sitting president in the middle of a war, albeit a minor one. The counties that Mondale and Dukakis won were in Litte Dixie, which like Dixie as a whole has continued to swing hard to the GOP. Many of the old hardcore FDR folks that still voted Dem in the 80s are now dead. Oklahoma will not be even remotely competitive in 2008, primarily because its two urban counties, Oklahoma and Tulsa, are Republican strongholds.

Do you guys think I know nothing about Oklahoma politics?  Why don't you believe an Okie about Oklahoma politics.  Trust me, OKLAHOMA WILL BE COMPETITIVE IN 2008!!!!!!!!  You don't believe that Oklahoma is trending Democrat.  You don't believe me, which means you must think the Democrats or Republicans should NEVER spend time here or focus on our needs.

Do you think our 7 Electoral Votes are very vital and crucial, or are they insignificant?

[Joe Biden 2020]

Do you think our 7 Electoral Votes are very vital and crucial, or are they insignificant?

No offense, but in the hundred years since Oklahoma has been a state, I don't think there's ever been a single election in which Oklahoma's electoral votes were crucial to victory and were not simply taken for granted or ignored.

So, are our needs just as important as New Yorkers needs or Californian needs or are our people just little insignificant stupid peons.

[Joe Biden 2020]

The counties that Mondale and Dukakis won were in Litte Dixie, which like Dixie as a whole has continued to swing hard to the GOP. Many of the old hardcore FDR folks that still voted Dem in the 80s are now dead.

Not really... those counties are still ferociously Democratic on every level. Coburn didn't crack 40 percent in many of them. There really is no excuse for Kerry's utter drubbing.

Exactly...  Thank you for somebody actually helping me make my point.

[Joe Biden 2020]

Do you think our 7 Electoral Votes are very vital and crucial, or are they insignificant?

No offense, but in the hundred years since Oklahoma has been a state, I don't think there's ever been a single election in which Oklahoma's electoral votes were crucial to victory and were not simply taken for granted or ignored.

So, are our needs just as important as New Yorkers needs or Californian needs or are our people just little insignificant stupid peons.

New York and California weren't exactly competitive in the last few elections either.

You're right, I should have said states like Florida and Ohio.  How about their needs versus the needs of Oklahomans?

[Joe Biden 2020]

Do you think our 7 Electoral Votes are very vital and crucial, or are they insignificant?

No offense, but in the hundred years since Oklahoma has been a state, I don't think there's ever been a single election in which Oklahoma's electoral votes were crucial to victory and were not simply taken for granted or ignored.

So, are our needs just as important as New Yorkers needs or Californian needs or are our people just little insignificant stupid peons.

You asked: are Oklahoma's electoral votes vital and crucial?

I responded: there has never been an election where they were.

This is, as far as I know, just a fact.  I was simply answering your question truthfully.

I know, Gabu, but I'm just tired of people not giving Oklahoma any respect politically.  I was just speaking out of frustration.

[Joe Biden 2020]

Do you guys think I know nothing about Oklahoma politics?  Why don't you believe an Okie about Oklahoma politics.  Trust me, OKLAHOMA WILL BE COMPETITIVE IN 2008!!!!!!!!  You don't believe that Oklahoma is trending Democrat.  You don't believe me, which means you must think the Democrats or Republicans should NEVER spend time here or focus on our needs.

Do you think our 7 Electoral Votes are very vital and crucial, or are they insignificant?

Oklahoma was the fifth most conservative state in 2004. Oklahoma was 60-38 in 2000 but 65-34 in 2004. The only thing Oklahoma is trending is more conservative. Yes, Democrats or Republicans shound't spend thier time there because it is a lock to go to the Republicans.

So, if they don't visit us, how will they find out what we need from the lips of Oklahomans.  Are our needs not as important as the needs of Ohio or Florida?

[Joe Biden 2020]

Do you guys think I know nothing about Oklahoma politics?  Why don't you believe an Okie about Oklahoma politics.  Trust me, OKLAHOMA WILL BE COMPETITIVE IN 2008!!!!!!!!  You don't believe that Oklahoma is trending Democrat.  You don't believe me, which means you must think the Democrats or Republicans should NEVER spend time here or focus on our needs.

Do you think our 7 Electoral Votes are very vital and crucial, or are they insignificant?

Oklahoma was the fifth most conservative state in 2004. Oklahoma was 60-38 in 2000 but 65-34 in 2004. The only thing Oklahoma is trending is more conservative. Yes, Democrats or Republicans shound't spend thier time there because it is a lock to go to the Republicans.

So, if they don't visit us, how will they find out what we need from the lips of Oklahomans.  Are our needs not as important as the needs of Ohio or Florida?

You have some beef with the winner take all Electoral College system, which is totally legitimate. On a human level, of course a person from one state is just as important as a person from another state. However, candidates for president have to campaign where it will likely make a difference in their EC vote total, and under the current system, that is in large swing states like Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Michigan.  If you don't like this work to change the EC. Oklahoma, like my state of Tennessee, can in fact welcome Democrats at the local or statewide level. However, this never happens in presidential races anymore. Bush did 15 points better in OK than nationwide in 04 after doing 13 points better there than nationwide in 2000. In 1996 Dole did just 8 points better there than nationwide, and in 1992 Bush Sr. did only 5 points better in OK than nationwide. These are not the patterns of an increasingly competitive state.

Hey, guys, in some respect, I'm just playing games with you, acting like I'm getting all bent out of shape for something thats unlikely to occur, not saying impossible, but unlikely.

I understand strategy, and I do like the winner-take-all EC.  I just want the needs of all Americans to be represented in a campaign, as best as a candidate can.  I know it is impossible to get to every county, or even every big city in the country during a short election campaign (face it 9 months from February-November is a very short time, unless you're an expectant mother).  I will relent and say that on paper it looks as though Oklahoma is trending more conservative, but I'm going off of gut instinct more than anything.  I don't have any actual proof, but I just have that feeling that we will not be blood red for much longer.  I think the Republican candidate will probably win Oklahoma, but they will get between 53-57% of the vote, not 60-65% as has been in 2000 and 2004.  I can see the Democrats winning about 10-20 of our 77 counties, mainly in eastern and southeastern Oklahoma.  Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Norman, and Lawton, our four biggest cities, and their respective counties will go Republican.  Somewhere between 10-20 counties will go blue, and thus that will bring down the Republican's numbers.

[Joe Biden 2020]

Sweden uses a national vote system and it's evident how virtually all of the campaigning takes place in Stockholm. No one bothers with the rural areas.

In part wouldn't that be because everyone knows that (most of) the rural areas will vote for the Social Democrats regardless? Over here areas with lots of safe seats "tend" to get ignored as well.

Which is exactly what would happen with Oklahoma, of course.

Oklahoma is not all rural. Metro Oklahoma City and Tulsa together (they're not that far apart) are about the size of metro Kansas City or Cincinatti. Not the biggest population center for certain, but still worth running tv spots, which would be somewhat of an improvement over currently being ignored.

It's not a big city, and Oklahoma is heavily Republican.  It would mostly be a waste of effort.  It would get minimal attention.  The large states would get at least 90% of campaign attention.

Oklahoma City is a big city.  Not the size of New York, but you don't have to be the size of New York to be a big city.  Tulsa is also a big city.  Even Norman and Lawton are big cities, IMO.  Norman has approaching 110,000 and Lawton approaching 100,000.  Oklahoma is not completely rural, but even that doesn't make us any less important of a state.  No one can diss Oklahoma and say that we are just a bunch or rural folk who don't know nothin'.

[Joe Biden 2020]

Sweden uses a national vote system and it's evident how virtually all of the campaigning takes place in Stockholm. No one bothers with the rural areas.

In part wouldn't that be because everyone knows that (most of) the rural areas will vote for the Social Democrats regardless? Over here areas with lots of safe seats "tend" to get ignored as well.

Which is exactly what would happen with Oklahoma, of course.

Oklahoma is not all rural. Metro Oklahoma City and Tulsa together (they're not that far apart) are about the size of metro Kansas City or Cincinatti. Not the biggest population center for certain, but still worth running tv spots, which would be somewhat of an improvement over currently being ignored.

It's not a big city, and Oklahoma is heavily Republican.  It would mostly be a waste of effort.  It would get minimal attention.  The large states would get at least 90% of campaign attention.

Oklahoma City is a big city.  Not the size of New York, but you don't have to be the size of New York to be a big city.  Tulsa is also a big city.  Even Norman and Lawton are big cities, IMO.  Norman has approaching 110,000 and Lawton approaching 100,000.  Oklahoma is not completely rural, but even that doesn't make us any less important of a state.  No one can diss Oklahoma and say that we are just a bunch or rural folk who don't know nothin'.

Your education is immaterial.  The point is that there would be little campaigning in a small city like OK City in an area that is heavily Republican anyway.  Most campaign funds would go to the heavily populated regions on the coasts and the great lakes area to maximize turnout of their respective voters.  It's a simple numbers game.

So, in other words, we just continue to get screwed.

[Joe Biden 2020]

It's one of the things I like about the EC, it allows for smaller states to have possible importance.

The one thing I don't like about it, though, is that even if a large group of people decide to vote for the other party, it won't make one bit of difference if the state is strongly one way or the other.  This results in politicians being effectively able to ignore or even blatantly give the finger to regions that their base doesn't like (Massachusetts comes to mind), and the people in that region have no way whatsoever to express their heightened disapproval because that state was already going to vote in a predetermined fashion.  Stuff like this heavily reinforces people's views that many presidents are only really president of half of the United States, and I'm not sure if that's exactly a good thing.  This wouldn't be the case in a situation where every vote counts, rather than every state.

As I said before, it's largely an issue of what your priorities are in terms of who should be included in the electoral process in a meaningful manner.

Even if we don't have as big of a voice in the Presidential Election as bigger states such as Ohio, Florida, Missouri, or Texas, I still disagree with that view and I believe that, whether good or bad, President Bush is still my President.  I mean, once they take office, they do occasionally visit our state, espcially Tinker AFB in Midwest City or Vance AFB in Enid or Altus AFB in Altus or Fort Sill in Lawton.  I still strongly believe that while we are virtually ignored during the campaign, we are not completely ignored during the administration.  When we had the major ice storms in early January, the President took note.  When we had the May 3, 1999 F5, almost F6, tornado, President Clinton responded.  When we had the Oklahoma City Bombing in 1995, President Clinton immediately responded, and so did the New York firefighters.  For that, we will always be grateful and returned the favor by sending some of our finest to New York during the aftermath of 9/11.  The same goes with even smaller states such as Arkansas, Mississippi, Kansas, Nebraska, Nevada, Utah they are not ignored by this country.  Iowa, while smaller than Oklahoma, is definitely more of a swing state and thus gets more attention.  As KEmperor pointed out, it is a numbers game.

So, at least I can take heart in the fact that during the administration, Oklahoma is not ignored.

So, I'm going to try to put to bed my ranting about Oklahoma being irrelevant, and while we may not be actively pursued in the campaign, we are treated as equals during the administration.

I need your help.  If I start ranting and raving, other than stating my opinion, about this state, remind me and quote this.  Don't do it in a harsh way, but in a pleasant way.  This will be hard as I have such strong feelings for this state, but with your help, I can do it.