Hypocritical Germans refuse to aid the countries that aided them

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Tell me, dear Very Serious People, how has austerity helped Greece enact structural reforms? Unless slashing the minimum wage and stopping to provide basic social services is what you mean by "structural reforms".

So let's say that Greece just get the money, what happens then, dear very unserious person? Have Greece given any kind of indication that they will make any kind of structural reforms, have they given any indication that we can trust their promises?

Who's we?  You and the turd in your pocket?

Im sure the Greeks are happy to know that random Danes are doing their moral duty and ensuring they don't get a single penny until they've completely and utterly dis/daned them and let them know that they think Greeks are dhildren that must be dealt with like children.

Is this a unique attitude to you Ingemann or is it a common viewpoint in that least of Scandinavian nations?

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Who's we?  You and the turd in your pocket?

Im sure the Greeks are happy to know that random Danes are doing their moral duty and ensuring they don't get a single penny until they've completely and utterly dis/daned them and let them know that they think Greeks are dhildren that must be dealt with like children.

Is this a unique attitude to you Ingemann or is it a common viewpoint in that least of Scandinavian nations?

Why do you have to get snarky about his nationality? ("dis/daned" ). It is not a matter of nationality.

And Denmark is not the least of the Scandinavian nations. It is the largest by territory and the second largest by population and GDP.

I was being snarky and nothing more.  I found his post belittling and patronizing and wanted to respond in kind.  Perhaps as a kind of Jantesque reminder not to think too highly of yourself.

Also I think counting Greenland is a little much here. 

Anyway..ingemann broke many of the laws

You're not to think you are anything special.
You're not to think you are as good as we are.
You're not to think you are smarter than we are.
You're not to convince yourself that you are better than we are.
You're not to think you know more than we do.
You're not to think you are more important than we are.

And

You're not to think you can teach us anything.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Who's we?  You and the turd in your pocket?

I'm sure the Greeks are happy to know that random Danes are doing their moral duty and ensuring they don't get a single penny until they've completely and utterly dis/daned them and let them know that they think Greeks are dhildren that must be dealt with like children.

Is this a unique attitude to you Ingemann or is it a common viewpoint in that least of Scandinavian nations?

Why do you have to get snarky about his nationality? ("dis/daned" ). It is not a matter of nationality.

And Denmark is not the least of the Scandinavian nations. It is the largest by territory and the second largest by population and GDP.

I was being snarky and nothing more.  I found his post belittling and patronizing and wanted to respond in kind.  Perhaps as a kind of Jantesque reminder not to think too highly of yourself.

Also I think counting Greenland is a little much here.  

Anyway.. Ingemann broke many of the laws

You're not to think you are anything special.
You're not to think you are as good as we are.
You're not to think you are smarter than we are.
You're not to convince yourself that you are better than we are.
You're not to think you know more than we do.
You're not to think you are more important than we are.

And

You're not to think you can teach us anything.

Why wouldn't you include Greenland in the territory? It is part of the state and is not like all the territory of the other Scandinavian countries is garden soil.

What could possibly be gained by answering his post by being equally belittling and patronizing or dragging the Law of Jante into the discussion?

The irritation of inefficient Southern European economies and political systems is widespread in both Northern and Eastern European EU member states. The Baltic countries are fx some of the hardliners on the debt issue as are other parts of the old Eastern Europe. Northern disdain for Southern inefficiency has some factual basis. Generally Northern European countries are better organized and less corrupt than Southern Europe. If the EU is going to work Southern Europe will probably have to establish procedures and organizational practices closer to Northern Europe and some social norms have to change. A certain "northernization" of Southern Europe is probably necessary if the EU is going to work as an economic union.

(as a Eurosceptic I do not really have a dog in that fight, but if you want the EU to work as an actual political and economic union I think it is obvious that the South will need to adjust a lot more than the North)

Because I think it is easy to pontificate about the right way to do things from a position of relative comfort.  I think Greece should be aided or allowed to exit the Euro and aid themselves.  Ingemann's attitude precludes those for a non workable tsk tsk session of 'we are better than you, and everything would be better if you were just a little more like us.'  That attitude is precisely why this thread is made. There was a time, believe it or not, when countries like Denmark were in need of help in a bad way. Hell, Germany needed a lot of help.  And the allies helped Germany even though they didn't want to, because they knew it would lead to a much better outcome. Playing tough love will only strengthen the extremists, discord, and political unrest in the euro zone

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I think that's the pragmatic outlook. The Greeks need to get their house in order, but they can't do it if somebody is stepping on their backs. 

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Swedish Cheese...they need the money now.  Reform will happen...but slowly.

How do you think many states in the US even make it?  Thanks to vast sums of extra spending from the federal government, year after year.

Sure...it costs money and seems like handouts...but ultimately a good economy in Alabama is good for all Americans...same as in Greece and Europe.  Alabama benefits more from it than MN or other pay-out states lose.

If you can't stomach that thought...give up the Euro and let each nation play sovereign over their currency.  But I feel that the Germans want their cake and they'd like to eat it too...as well as Greece's small cake.  And they don't understand why the Greeks aren't content with no cake and the task of cleaning up the party room. After all, they were the ones who were partying, right?  Well, at least until Germany decided it would eat the entire Eurocake to the point that its creep,show territory now 'I WANT MY CAKE'

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Yaddayadda moral blabla ethics....

How is this relevant for the dsiscussion, I can ignore Snowstalkers misunderstood pop version of the Jantelov (I will get back to that later).

But the whole Austerity discussion have nothing to do with moral or lack of it. If Ebil northern Europe would statuate a example with Greece, they could have been much worse.

I don't envies the Greek, it's not fun to be them right now. But there's several facts. Greece have gotten a much better deal than most debtor nations. The other is even if Greeks debts was not written off, the Greek economy would still be in trouble, because they have a negative balance of payments, their low productivity can't compete with the rest of the Eurozone or EU.

A Keynesian economic policy are often a good idea, but in the Greek case I fail to see how it will help. It will not raise productivity, in fack it will lower it by pushing wages up, it will not give any incentive to reforms. In fact if we look at the Greek economy before the crisis, what we saw was how such economic policies would work in Greece. Keynesian economics are a tool, a very useful tool... so to stay in that terminology let's say it's a hammer, the problem is that the Greek economy need screwdriver.

Still I could defend that Greece got another deal, if they came with a suggestion to how they would improve their economy. Antonio, you're right that it's not your responsability to come with a solution, but at the very least we should expect you to point some kind of solutions suggested by the Greek government, rather than just keep repeating anti-austerity, anti-austerity, anti-austerity, anti-austerity, anti-austerity, anti-austerity, anti-austerity, anti-austerity, anti-austerity ad nauseam.

As for the whole Jantelov, Snowstalker stop using it, when you don't get it. The Jantelov doesn't say I'm better than you, it's others telling you/me/us that you, I and everybody shouldn't believe we're special snowflakes, don't stick you/mine/ours head up. It's simply a way to tell people that they shouldn't believe they're special in any positive way, and it have zero relevance on this discussion. Nobody is after Greece because they're full of themselves or think they're something special, Greece's problem is that they owe money.

It is you who isn't getting it.  You act full of yourself in a way reminiscent of Gustaf (very grumpy and coarse, but also completely non self aware about it). 

People here always attribute the warmth and friendliness to Scandinavian roots...but unless all the friendly ones came to America, Im beginning to sense it came from somewhere else.  Who knows...maybe only Norwegians are friendly.

It's also clear youcan't take a joke. I expect you'll be offended by this post.

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I said 'the least' as an insult to ingemann.  It had nothing to do with geographic size or really Denmark as a country at all.  It has to do with poking pinholes in ingemann's nearly impenetrable ego.

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First I will apoligise that I do not fit into some disneyfied American stereotype of Scandinavians. I know it's evil of me not to be a walking liberal stereotype. Second I'm sorry Gustaf and I have destroyed your vision of how Scandinavians should be. Of course I also expect that your view of Norwegians will be destroyed the moment you have interact with some of those.

Second... your stereotype of Scandinavian are warmth and friendliness? Wow I'm impressed with how we ended up with that stereotype, the standard description of us are cold and reserved (unless we drink) among foreigners, and it's centuries old.

You clearly don't have a grasp on migration to the United States from Scandinavia.  Lots of them came to America and carried their culture and values with them.  The stereotypes have been of being reserved, but very warm and welcoming.

And yes...often times people here get a rude awakening upon visiting 'the old country' since they treat the visitors as outsiders even though they can still visit the farm that the relatives lived on.

But living among the only real non-Scandinavia place with Scandinavian roots that permeate the culture to this day gives you insight...that Scandinavians are generally warm and friendly...despite their desire to come off cold and aloof.

We have all the mental illness that comes with those roots as well..the neurosis, passive aggressivity, the constant need to not stand out or make waves...i get the jantelov because people here live it and don't even know what it is...we call it 'Minnesota Nice' but it's really Americanized Jantelov.

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I think your posting just proves you're a rather unpleasant person.  That's all.

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I think your posting just proves you're a rather unpleasant person.  That's all.

...and you're a cultural imperialist.

Yes.  That's what I am.  Now go eat your krabby patties.