Nobody is ‘born that way,’ gay historians say (user search)
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  Nobody is ‘born that way,’ gay historians say (search mode)
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Author Topic: Nobody is ‘born that way,’ gay historians say  (Read 4780 times)
Fmr President & Senator Polnut
polnut
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Posts: 19,489
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Political Matrix
E: -2.71, S: -5.22

« on: April 14, 2014, 12:13:39 AM »

It's a thoroughly problematic article and frankly not very good.

Of course the categorisation of sexuality is a 'construct'... what isn't a construct of some kind?
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
polnut
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*****
Posts: 19,489
Australia


Political Matrix
E: -2.71, S: -5.22

« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2014, 09:42:39 PM »


Um... so are people born heterosexual?
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
polnut
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*****
Posts: 19,489
Australia


Political Matrix
E: -2.71, S: -5.22

« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2014, 11:11:30 PM »


What does that have to do with anything?  People are born sad because they've just been pushed out of the only place they will ever know where their every need is always cared for with out ever having to wait for anything.

I'm just curious specifically where he was going with that comment.

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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
polnut
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*****
Posts: 19,489
Australia


Political Matrix
E: -2.71, S: -5.22

« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2014, 07:45:50 PM »

Tony? Really?

The TERMS homosexuality/heterosexuality/bisexuality/asexuality are constructs - because they're terms society has created over a long period of time to describe biology.

Sexuality is not just the desire to ... stroke one's genitals, it's a method to build and sustain relationships, to continue your genetic line etc etc...

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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
polnut
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 19,489
Australia


Political Matrix
E: -2.71, S: -5.22

« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2014, 08:30:02 PM »

Tony? Really?

The TERMS homosexuality/heterosexuality/bisexuality/asexuality are constructs - because they're terms society has created over a long period of time to describe biology.

Sexuality is not just the desire to ... stroke one's genitals, it's a method to build and sustain relationships, to continue your genetic line etc etc...



But a) the use or non-use of terms, and the implications they carry, absolutely do have a tangible effect on people (note my "civil unions" example upthread), and b) it's beyond silly to deny that society and culture has an impact on what people find sexually desirable, and how sexuality is practiced.  

Nobody is arguing that biology plays no role- that's a strawman.  But to say that society and culture plays no role?  Just take a look at the relative prevalence of pubic hair in pornos of the 1970s and today, and tell me with a straight face that sexuality and gender isn't at least a little bit socially constructed.  You can't.

Note: this is not to pick on you specifically, but is more to push back generally against the people who are basically denying that anything besides biology matters.

Respectfully... how the hell did you get to there from what I wrote?

My view is very clear... the biology is the most important innate element here. Without the biological drive and attraction to someone of the same gender,  the social construct doesn't have anything to hang off. The framing of that biological attraction into categories is a construct, which is what I wrote before. Same-sex attraction exists in our species, as it does in many others... of course we can look to Ancient Greece or Rome where the sexuality spectrum was decidedly blurred and say human sexuality seems more codified now. But again, that's not about the biology, that's about the social framing for that sexual expression. Even then, open expressions of outright homosexuality were not exactly welcomed in Greece or Rome - we're actually in a society where one can (generally) fully express one's innate biological sexuality - therefore there's not as much need to blur or quantify non-straight sexual activities as anything other than what it is.

So of course society has an impact, but that does not change the innate biology that drives the desire to be or act in a certain way. So if you're in a society where homosexual activity is frowned upon (or punished), then it is likely you will not act on it. That doesn't change your actual sexuality, it just changes how you are PERCEIVED in your society.

Tony, you're actually wrong, sexual bonding has been recognised in a number of species apart from our own, a number of bird species, crocodiles, pigs, hyenas and closer to home, chimps.

I've also done gender classes and they do a terrible disservice to the study of gender and sexuality because there is some kind of inherent mental block to acknowledging that people are different... different doesn't mean better or worse, weaker or strong, important or not important, but different.

I find this idea that sexuality is purely about getting something hard and then sticking it into something - getting off and leaving... is actually a little disturbing.
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
polnut
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*****
Posts: 19,489
Australia


Political Matrix
E: -2.71, S: -5.22

« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2014, 12:20:55 AM »

Respectfully... how the hell did you get to there from what I wrote?

Um... it wasn't just what you wrote, and I thought I made that quite clear?  People are having a damn hard time actually listening to what other people are saying in this thread, that's for sure.  (Note: I do not exclude myself from that assessment.)

I find this idea that sexuality is purely about getting something hard and then sticking it into something - getting off and leaving... is actually a little disturbing.

I'm not entirely sure what exactly this is supposed to be directed to; I assume it's at Antonio but I'm pretty sure that's a misunderstanding of his position at best.

I think I'm understanding what others are saying.

If I've misinterpreted what you were saying I apologise. This strikes me as two people driving down a divided road... you don't understand why the other isn't on your side of the road...
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
polnut
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 19,489
Australia


Political Matrix
E: -2.71, S: -5.22

« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2014, 12:57:05 AM »
« Edited: April 23, 2014, 01:02:36 AM by Fmr. President & Senator Polnut »

Anyone who expresses contempt for social sciences should never ever been taken seriously on a political forum, since he would obviously be utterly unable to master the basic notions necessary to have a remotely worthwhile opinion on political issues.

I don't think anyone has expressed contempt for 'social sciences'  - as a former student OF them, I do think there are shortcomings, but I've yet to see contempt.
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