American "justice" hates blacks

[Associate Justice PiT]

White guy shoots black guy, the Justice Department can't resist.

White cop shoots unarmed, restrained black guy in the back for no legitimate reason, and gets off with a verdict less than murder...

I'm not sure what they are "review[ing]" here though.

     Do you think that it is obvious from the video that Mehserle intended to kill Grant? Is it not a reasonable doubt that he really thought he had drawn his taser?

[Lunar]

White guy shoots black guy, the Justice Department can't resist.

White cop shoots unarmed, restrained black guy in the back for no legitimate reason, and gets off with a verdict less than murder...

I'm not sure what they are "review[ing]" here though.

     Do you think that it is obvious from the video that Mehserle intended to kill Grant? Is it not a reasonable doubt that he really thought he had drawn his taser?

Well, his story changed to the taser story, he's had six hours of training with the taser, taser's weigh half as much, are shaped differently, have a different color, and was on the completely other side of his body as his gun.

And, it should be said, that he shouldn't have used his taser here either!

I'm not outraged by the verdict, I think it's a conclusion that reasonable people could reach, but given Oakland's history of police racism, it's a stark reminder of the days when police could shoot black victims and get off with a slap on the wrist (although Mehserle certainly didn't get a slap on the wrist).

Anyway, I was just protesting Gramp's intentional oversimplification -- many people view what the police officer did here as tantamount to an execution, it's more than just an issue of white cop and black victim imo.

Shrugz

[cinyc]

...I just watched a video of a bunch of people breaking into a Footlocker and stealing a bunch of shoes and stuff - I don't know what these people are thinking, it's not as if that's going to help anyone or anything. Rather than one step back now it's two.

How is it a step back?  At least they're responding to the violence visited upon them with reciprocation.  And the owners of Foot-lockers, etc, are almost uniformly white.

You are a racist.

[Sbane]

This would be a non-story if a black cop did this to a white man...

It might be a non story in terms of the media, but he would be doing more time than Johannes.

[Sbane]

It's rather unfortunate that there have been riots over this. I can't say whether or not this is the correct charge (though clearly this guy should have been charged with something, this being the minimum possible case) but even so it's not something to riot over. I just watched a video of a bunch of people breaking into a Footlocker and stealing a bunch of shoes and stuff - I don't know what these people are thinking, it's not as if that's going to help anyone or anything. Rather than one step back now it's two.

Yeah that was pretty ridiculous. Things were going pretty well when the crowd was assembled in one place, listening to speeches. Then the crowd split up, the anarchists started riling up the crowd and sh**t started happening. And then they stole some shoes. They really reformed the justice system by doing that.

[Sbane]

...I just watched a video of a bunch of people breaking into a Footlocker and stealing a bunch of shoes and stuff - I don't know what these people are thinking, it's not as if that's going to help anyone or anything. Rather than one step back now it's two.

How is it a step back?  At least they're responding to the violence visited upon them with reciprocation.  And the owners of Foot-lockers, etc, are almost uniformly white.

You're seriously defending these racist individuals, who steal, injure and damage property?  They aren't meeting this injustice with reciprocation.  These are a bunch of hooligans that want an excuse to commit crimes.  They stole from Jewlry and electronic stores that were owned by people in their own community.   

How are they racist? At least a third or the crowd, and the majority of the anarchists with bandanas over their face, was non-black. You are right they were just a bunch of hooligans who disrespected Oscar Grant's memory by using this event to commit robbery. Don't get the racist part though.

[Associate Justice PiT]

White guy shoots black guy, the Justice Department can't resist.

White cop shoots unarmed, restrained black guy in the back for no legitimate reason, and gets off with a verdict less than murder...

I'm not sure what they are "review[ing]" here though.

     Do you think that it is obvious from the video that Mehserle intended to kill Grant? Is it not a reasonable doubt that he really thought he had drawn his taser?

Well, his story changed to the taser story, he's had six hours of training with the taser, taser's weigh half as much, are shaped differently, have a different color, and was on the completely other side of his body as his gun.

And, it should be said, that he shouldn't have used his taser here either!

I'm not outraged by the verdict, I think it's a conclusion that reasonable people could reach, but given Oakland's history of police racism, it's a stark reminder of the days when police could shoot black victims and get off with a slap on the wrist (although Mehserle certainly didn't get a slap on the wrist).

Anyway, I was just protesting Gramp's intentional oversimplification -- many people view what the police officer did here as tantamount to an execution, it's more than just an issue of white cop and black victim imo.

Shrugz

     Well didn't he holster his taser on the wrong side? Not to mention that he was under a great deal of stress (even experts have made the mistake under stress) & his reaction afterwards suggested that he was shocked by his action. He shouldn't have used the taser, but the issue has to do whether he had intent to kill. The reckless use of a taser (which turned out to be a gun), seems to gel with the facts required to convict him of manslaughter.

[Vepres]

This would be a non-story if a black cop did this to a white man...

It might be a non story in terms of the media, but he would be doing more time than Johannes.

I wouldn't be so sure. Al Sharpton would come to save the day!

[Lunar]

    Well didn't he holster his taser on the wrong side? Not to mention that he was under a great deal of stress (even experts have made the mistake under stress) & his reaction afterwards suggested that he was shocked by his action. He shouldn't have used the taser, but the issue has to do whether he had intent to kill. The reckless use of a taser (which turned out to be a gun), seems to gel with the facts required to convict him of manslaughter.

His taser was on the left side of his body, I'm not sure if that's the right side or wrong side.  Typically that's the side, I think, that is used for the quickest draw for right-handed folks, I'm not sure whether he was right-handed or left-handed.

The fact that he shouldn't have even been using his taser here, imo, is a fairly relevant fact.  I mean, if I attack a guy in an alleyway and beat him to death, I'd probably be charged for murder, right?  Even if I can legitimately claim "No, I only meant to severely injure him in an unjust fashion, I didn't want to kill him!"

I mean, people DO die from tasers, and the cop in question has taken a six hours of training before he was given his taser, so I assume that he's familiar that tasers are not to be used flippantly on unarmed, restrained subjects?  I'm not super familiar with police code, or tasers in general, so I'm not speaking from a point of authority here.

You know, I don't know what the "right" verdict here is.   The cop shot an unarmed, restrained man in the back, and acted surprised, but his original story wasn't the "I thought my gun was a taser" story:

http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_15002927

You must be logged in to read this quote.

A substantial part of me wonders how much of this incident is due to the cop in question being a BART police officer rather than a police officer who actually, y'know, has to deal with homicides, cartels, gangs, etc. like the Oakland Police.  If that turns out to be the raw source of the police officer not knowing what his gun even looks like when confronted with a vaguely stressful situation -- and, in response to your point about him being under duress, I would say that this situation was FAR less stressful than like what many cops face, as this was only an incident with an individual who was not unarmed and constrained in a train station with nowhere to go -- then BART police need to either receive more training or just be given instead of guns or something, as this is COMPLETELY inexcusable.  Police Officers should not be given a free pass to not know what their own gun looks and feels like just because there's an unarmed guy being restrained who's yelling obscenities or whatevsky.  


I don't think the murderer in question was necessarily a bad guy, but it does seem to me, as someone with zero actual knowledge of the law, that as a police officer he should be held to a higher standard than the average bear when it comes to things like appropriate force, taser protocol, somewhat stressful situations, and what a gun looks and feels like as you flip the safety off and shoot an unarmed dude in the back.

[Sbane]

Mostly people standing about. I think they have a podium set up so people are speaking. Lots of signs denouncing racist/killer cops. Standard stuff.

Yeah when will the denounce the gang members within their community for killing four cops in 2009?

Who the hell did not denounce that? You are insane.

[Sbane]

Yeah when will the denounce the gang members within their community for killing four cops in 2009?

Hopefully never.  Why should one be angry at a fellow slave who brings down one of the overseers?  One should rather applaud.

Opebo thanks for being the other side of the moronic coin. IIRC two of the cops shot weren't the "overseers". One of the cops killed was latino as well as one of the injured cops.

[Хahar 🤔]

This would be a non-story if a black cop did this to a white man...

It might be a non story in terms of the media, but he would be doing more time than Johannes.

I wouldn't be so sure. Al Sharpton would come to save the day!

Stop saying words, white boy.

[Associate Justice PiT]

    Well didn't he holster his taser on the wrong side? Not to mention that he was under a great deal of stress (even experts have made the mistake under stress) & his reaction afterwards suggested that he was shocked by his action. He shouldn't have used the taser, but the issue has to do whether he had intent to kill. The reckless use of a taser (which turned out to be a gun), seems to gel with the facts required to convict him of manslaughter.

His taser was on the left side of his body, I'm not sure if that's the right side or wrong side.  Typically that's the side, I think, that is used for the quickest draw for right-handed folks, I'm not sure whether he was right-handed or left-handed.

The fact that he shouldn't have even been using his taser here, imo, is a fairly relevant fact.  I mean, if I attack a guy in an alleyway and beat him to death, I'd probably be charged for murder, right?  Even if I can legitimately claim "No, I only meant to severely injure him in an unjust fashion, I didn't want to kill him!"

I mean, people DO die from tasers, and the cop in question has taken a six hours of training before he was given his taser, so I assume that he's familiar that tasers are not to be used flippantly on unarmed, restrained subjects?  I'm not super familiar with police code, or tasers in general, so I'm not speaking from a point of authority here.

You know, I don't know what the "right" verdict here is.   The cop shot an unarmed, restrained man in the back, and acted surprised, but his original story wasn't the "I thought my gun was a taser" story:

http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_15002927

You must be logged in to read this quote.

A substantial part of me wonders how much of this incident is due to the cop in question being a BART police officer rather than a police officer who actually, y'know, has to deal with homicides, cartels, gangs, etc. like the Oakland Police.  If that turns out to be the raw source of the police officer not knowing what his gun even looks like when confronted with a vaguely stressful situation -- and, in response to your point about him being under duress, I would say that this situation was FAR less stressful than like what many cops face, as this was only an incident with an individual who was not unarmed and constrained in a train station with nowhere to go -- then BART police need to either receive more training or just be given instead of guns or something, as this is COMPLETELY inexcusable.  Police Officers should not be given a free pass to not know what their own gun looks and feels like just because there's an unarmed guy being restrained who's yelling obscenities or whatevsky.  


I don't think the murderer in question was necessarily a bad guy, but it does seem to me, as someone with zero actual knowledge of the law, that as a police officer he should be held to a higher standard than the average bear when it comes to things like appropriate force, taser protocol, somewhat stressful situations, and what a gun looks and feels like as you flip the safety off and shoot an unarmed dude in the back.

     But if you were to beat somebody to death & you could convince the jury that you had only intended to severely harm them, you would still be convicted of manslaughter. As I understand it, intent to kill is a critical component of murder. I don't think that killing somebody by an act of sheer recklessness can by itself be more serious than manslaughter. I rely on my mother for legal knowledge, but she was unsure on that point.

     As for the taser thing coming up later, Mastagni might have been hoping to at least dodge a first-degree murder charge by arguing that Mehserle shot Grant in the heat of passion. The article also says that the tack taken by Mehserle's later attorney was rather risky. I do not think that first-degree murder would have made sense based on the facts of the case, though. He was already armed, so he basically would have had to tell somebody he was planning to kill someone in order to show premeditation.

     As it happens, Mehserle didn't get a free pass. He's getting anywhere from 5 to 14 years in prison. I am not an expert on police protocol, but I would agree that there should be some consequences for using a taser without good cause, particularly if you mistake your gun for a taser.

[Sbane]

This would be a non-story if a black cop did this to a white man...

It might be a non story in terms of the media, but he would be doing more time than Johannes.

I wouldn't be so sure. Al Sharpton would come to save the day!

Has Sharpton ever defended a black cop like that? He usually does defend the powerless, whether it's fair or not. Anyways, cite?

[Lunar]

PiT I think we're about on the same page regarding this issue.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I would agree. I think our main point of contention was what exactly would constitute murder on Mehserle's part as opposed to manslaughter.

[Shilly]

This would be a non-story if a black cop did this to a white man...

It might be a non story in terms of the media, but he would be doing more time than Johannes.

I wouldn't be so sure. Al Sharpton would come to save the day!

Wow. you really have no business posting here if you can't avoid this sort of racial antagonism.
Right now, you're little better than the rioters.

[Lunar]

    I would agree. I think our main point of contention was what exactly would constitute murder on Mehserle's part as opposed to manslaughter.

I don't really hold an exact opinion on this convoluted issue, I think I'm just mostly expressing skepticism.  I'm not intricately familiar with either the case or the exact definition of murder in California State.  Obviously Mehserele committed an unjust crime that resulted in someone's death, and that crime exists somewhere in between the world of manslaughter and murder, with lots of evidence that good lawyers can bat about for days.

He's a police officer with fairly extensive training in what his gun and taser do, I think he should be held to a higher standard, and that this circumstance does not qualify as stressful enough to grant him an exception to a major lapse of duty, but I really don't know whether or not the evidence exists to convict him of murder.  The jury decided that it did not, and that's the system we work with.  Sometimes juries make wrong decisions, but that's inevitable

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Who said the jury didn't hold him to a higher standard?

[Lunar]

Who said the jury didn't hold him to a higher standard?

I just said we should hold him to a higher standard, I haven't been following the trial

[Associate Justice PiT]

    I would agree. I think our main point of contention was what exactly would constitute murder on Mehserle's part as opposed to manslaughter.

I don't really hold an exact opinion on this convoluted issue, I think I'm just mostly expressing skepticism.  I'm not intricately familiar with either the case or the exact definition of murder in California State.  Obviously Mehserele committed an unjust crime that resulted in someone's death, and that crime exists somewhere in between the world of manslaughter and murder, with lots of evidence that good lawyers can bat about for days.

He's a police officer with fairly extensive training in what his gun and taser do, I think he should be held to a higher standard, and that this circumstance does not qualify as stressful enough to grant him an exception to a major lapse of duty, but I really don't know whether or not the evidence exists to convict him of murder.  The jury decided that it did not, and that's the system we work with.  Sometimes juries make wrong decisions, but that's inevitable

     Juries often make bad decisions in regards to the police. Given the amount of power that the police are entrusted with, they should be punished harshly for misusing it. I don't know what the police are like over in New York City, but I have heard horror stories of the NYPD employing abusive sting operations, such as leaving a wallet on the subway & immediately arresting somebody who picks it up, when they might have just been taking it to the lost & found.

     The problem is that while many people cut the police too much slack, some cut the police too little. There was an incident some months ago when a 65-year old man charged a police officer with a machete & was promptly gunned down just a block from my house. However, some folks were talking about how the police officer should have tried to disable the attacker. I think the problem is that there are some folks who don't sympathize with how dangerous police work really is. It just happens that there are cases where the police are completely justified in using whatever force is immediately available to protect themselves & anybody else who might be threatened, & someone charging you with a knife is a case where there is no margin for error. Mehserle shooting Grant, on the other hand, was not a justified use of force.

[Lunar]

Someone charging a police officer, or a bystander in front of a police officer, with any kind of sword or knife  or lethal object could and should expect maximum force to be used to halt a potential homicide.  

Some peoples' silliness doesn't really relate to the case at hand though?  Maybe it relates to the protests.  That's just an example of how some people always are against the police, which is not a position I think I'm representing.

I'm not familiar with the NYPD either, I just moved here.  The police department I've regularly interacted with as part of my career for four years as a security guard was UCPD, and to a lesser extent, BPD [Berkely].  I could ramble a bit about some of the cases I've dealt with them, and I think I've reported some fairly serious criminals from time to time, but that'd just be rambling, as you know, I never ramble.

[Sbane]

Just saw the police chief on the local news. Out of 72 arrests last night only 19 were from Oakland and 12 were from OUT OF STATE. The rest were from the rest of the bay area and other parts of the state. So much for the "animals" (read n***er) in Oakland rioting. The anarchists from SF are mostly to blame.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Just saw the police chief on the local news. Out of 72 arrests last night only 19 were from Oakland and 12 were from OUT OF STATE. The rest were from the rest of the bay area and other parts of the state. So much for the "animals" (read n***er) in Oakland rioting. The anarchists from SF are mostly to blame.

Yup, a lot of anarchists not from Oakland.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Just saw the police chief on the local news. Out of 72 arrests last night only 19 were from Oakland and 12 were from OUT OF STATE. The rest were from the rest of the bay area and other parts of the state. So much for the "animals" (read n***er) in Oakland rioting. The anarchists from SF are mostly to blame.

...so... the actual animals? Ahem.