The Collapse of Cultural Catholicism

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

You're right - a large chunk are likely Hispanic as well. However it is not the case in the Mid-Atlantic. I couldn't believe how Catholic it got when I moved to Pennsylvania. Even more than New York where the Catholics are being forced out. I don't care if they go to church or not. The whole area is bathed in its Catholic identity. The New Jersey suburbs were part of where it is getting crushed (at least with whites), and I am ecstatic to be out of there.

Philly (and to an extent New York) are where it remains strong and they are also the parts with immobile white ethnics.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

Yes, I know. It's worth asking what makes that worthy of a radical break and totum simul repudiation now, though, when previously such things were dealt with through 'normal' lapsing-but-continuing-to-feel-a-vague-connection. I don't think it's at all unreasonable to speculate about ways Catholic culture might have [Inks]ed up, since this is about people leaving, you know, cultural Catholicism.

I can speak from experience (family/town etc) that cultural Catholicism even without devotion is increasingly regarded as 'unhealthy' for family cohesion. Catholics whose family is everything to them (in part because of their Catholicism) can't 'set aside' people that don't fit Church ideology. Why baptise your child into that community if you love your gay brother? It's a huge disconnect, in that family for a lot of people is worth more than a community of faith.

What in the world?
When have Catholics EVER followed Church ideology? On any matter. They have no authority, and no one takes the rules seriously.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

Yes, I know. It's worth asking what makes that worthy of a radical break and totum simul repudiation now, though, when previously such things were dealt with through 'normal' lapsing-but-continuing-to-feel-a-vague-connection. I don't think it's at all unreasonable to speculate about ways Catholic culture might have [Inks]ed up, since this is about people leaving, you know, cultural Catholicism.

I can speak from experience (family/town etc) that cultural Catholicism even without devotion is increasingly regarded as 'unhealthy' for family cohesion. Catholics whose family is everything to them (in part because of their Catholicism) can't 'set aside' people that don't fit Church ideology. Why baptise your child into that community if you love your gay brother? It's a huge disconnect, in that family for a lot of people is worth more than a community of faith.

What in the world?
When have Catholics EVER followed Church ideology? On any matter. They have no authority, and no one takes the rules seriously.

Dude, people renouncing Catholicsm and all aspects of Catholic identity here in 2012 due to the Church's big backing of the anti-gay marriage amendment was so prominent and widespread that it was mentioned in the Star Tribune.

Oh I'm sorry. I don't read that paper that talks extensively about my area.  We know this affects Minnesota.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

Oh my gosh. This isn't that hard to figure out.


If there is another dominant culture in the area, they will obviously be overpowered and forced to assimilate. However, most Catholic groups tend to stay within their own community. They were not part of trekking across the country. They came later and had already trekked across half the world to get here. Why would they exist in large numbers in the PNW?? This is really common sense. Protestant groups were a) more mobile; and b) here first and thus able to settle the unsettled west when the opportunity arose. Italians and Irish came in the 21st century. We are new. We stayed in our own area of the country, the richest area and helped each other out in our own community to break through in spite of the discrimination from natives. Cultural Catholicism is only a thing on the east coast. We will see if it comes up in the Southwest later, but I don't fully expect it to.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

But as that map shows the Pacific Northwest has plenty of Germans, just like here. Many of whom were Catholic and a majority in many areas. And they immigrated pretty early too.

You cant be serious. Germans aren't real Catholics. That isn't even remotely close to a national identity.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

Anyone is free to join the religion if they desire for whatever reason. However, Catholicism at its core must be attached to a cultural identity, especially in America. You may be somewhat right with Benedict as that he is from Bavaria which does have quite a few Catholics so it might have a local Catholic identity, but for descendants of immigrants to have an attachment to such a particular region of their home nation is odd. I understand Phil and myself and many others remain attached to Napoli, but that is a bit more unique in the sense that a huge portion of the immigrants are from there and neighboring towns. Even if descendants were to lose that eventually, they'd still have the national identity of Italy which remains Catholic. Germany is just a mush-up of a hundred different things in the center of Europe. It is a bit telling that Benedict is the only German pope since Martin Luther.

If someone from a non-Catholic lineage became Pope, I'd obviously fully support him or her as a spiritual leader, but they wouldn't be really Catholic in the same sense. Sure they'd be Catholic in faith, but they wouldn't be Catholic. Nothing to be offended about; it's just a fact.

Also, you chopped up my two statements when they relied on each other. Obviously German is a national identity. I meant Catholicism is not part of that identity.


To anticipate your next point, it is sad to see some of the younger Poles leaving in the areas by where you live, but they seem to be overpowered by the German identity seeing as they are more similar than most others. All northern European identities seem to either get overpowered by the other side of the heritage or blend together. Bill De Blasio is a good example of the former in spite of many of his childhood events that helped him to reach that conclusion. Heck, even I'm 1/4 or 1/8 Norwegian or whatever. I'd also be quite surprised if Libertas was fully Italian, but he embraces the Italian identity (and goes to Catholic mass as an atheist). As I stated earlier, it's an Italian/Irish-American thing primarily where it's an overpowering identity though it may extend to Hispanics and the French and as you point out, perhaps Native Bavarians. Surely others, that's not an exhaustive list.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

If someone from a non-Catholic lineage became Pope, I'd obviously fully support him or her as a spiritual leader, but they wouldn't be really Catholic in the same sense. Sure they'd be Catholic in faith, but they wouldn't be Catholic.

Glad to know I'm not really Catholic. Thanks.

Do you consider yourself culturally Catholic? Clearly not. It's not a slight. You either are or you're not. We are debating cultural Catholicism. I don't doubt your faith. You might argue that it's better to be a Catholic convert or someone of faith that happened to be born into the Church, as many of what I referred to as "real Catholics" are completely irreligious. I am not speaking on religious matters or the value of either type of Catholic. I am speaking about a particular culture, which I generally think is something to be proud of. It's an identity rather than religion.

As we've been over many times before, if I converted to Judaism, I would not be Jewish nor would my heirs.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

Regarding Lutherans, I believe it would be so much nicer if they behaved similarly to us. So much potential there!

"The truth" is utter silliness, particularly the idea that you and I are able to determine what it is and even more so that our idea has to mesh exactly with a million other versions. No two people will view it as exactly the same.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

Anyone is free to join the religion if they desire for whatever reason. However, Catholicism at its core must be attached to a cultural identity, especially in America. You may be somewhat right with Benedict as that he is from Bavaria which does have quite a few Catholics so it might have a local Catholic identity, but for descendants of immigrants to have an attachment to such a particular region of their home nation is odd. I understand Phil and myself and many others remain attached to Napoli, but that is a bit more unique in the sense that a huge portion of the immigrants are from there and neighboring towns. Even if descendants were to lose that eventually, they'd still have the national identity of Italy which remains Catholic. Germany is just a mush-up of a hundred different things in the center of Europe. It is a bit telling that Benedict is the only German pope since Martin Luther.

There are several heavily Catholic regions in Germany outside Bavaria, and these regions up until not too long in the past, and certainly up to the point the ancestors of German-Americans left Europe, placed a heavy emphasis on them being, as Catholics, different from the Prussian (and others) Protestants. The Augsburg Peace and the principle of cuius regio, eius religio had such a long lasting impact that basically up until World War II Germany was sharply divided between near fully Catholic areas (Bavaria, the Palatinate, Baden, the Rhineland, the Saarland) on the one hand and near fully Protestant areas on the other (Prussia, Saxony, the whole North and East). Secondly, I'd guess a few people with a German background have ancestors that originally came from Austria, but who would at the time of their migration obviously think of themselves as Germans; while being just as Catholic as any Italian or Irishman.

I do find that discussion quite interesting; and I agree about your views on the correlation between Cultural Catholicism and ethnicity. While I have obviously little to add on that in regards to America, I can say that this is also very much a thing back in Europe - in the sense that there is a Cultural Catholicism to several areas (Spain, France, Italy, Austria, Poland, Ireland) that does not necessarily correlate with actual exercise of beliefs.

Appreciate your thoughtful response. Do you think a significant number of German-Americans are Catholic though? Maybe I'm not familiar with the immigrant base, but I'd be stunned if it were even close to a majority. When they move into a German community in America, does the Church become the center part of the community? It really can't if there are a mix of groups identifying in different ways. Other groups have everyone in their community under the same extending umbrella.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

Regarding Lutherans, I believe it would be so much nicer if they behaved similarly to us. So much potential there!

I'm not too sure what you mean by "potential". But let's stop and consider the implications of this. You are basically saying that Lutherans should more excluding of people who aren't of Scandinavian heritage. And in my example, many Hispanics and Africans...

Now I think it's pretty clear why this way of thinking wouldn't go over well, nor should it. "You must be a Nordic white to be a True Lutheran^TM is a mindset that I think it's really obvious why it'll never be endorsed or become widespread.

I'm certainly not saying exclude. Hispanics should have their unique Catholic churches. African-Americans have their hugely historic Methodist and Baptist Churches. No one should be excluded anywhere. It's just silliness to decide "Oh, I don't want to be a part of this because of x, y, and z disagreements of ideology" and leave the denomination. Also, when people are assimilated with the remaining groups in the country, that culture can really drop off or disappear, which is a travesty for everyone. The whole society loses something special.

With regard to the second quote, I find it absurd that thousands of denominations need to exist to say the same exact thing, except with "but we don't so-and-so" or "we also so-and-so". Your interpretation of the truth is still different from everyone in your denomination. It doesn't even have to remotely align with your denomination. I don't see why it matters so much what the truth is...

I don't see the need to continue this unless you really want to call out something in this post. We won't see eye-to-eye on this, and you don't feel attached to any of your ethnicities like much of the Midwest. As a result, I'm very happy that you can form your own thing (even though I'm not sure playing Ingress while in mass is something I seriously support). Maybe one day, it can be a culture of its own for people of your background though I'm not sure that's what you'd like. If Madeline would like to comment, you can continue in that direction.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

I don't have a problem with authoritarian especially if no one if forceful about it; it's just norms that should be adhered to. People clearly need less choices as well, but that's a debate for another time.

Since it was proposed to me, you know I still have yet to leave the GOP over my many disagreements. It doesn't stop me from believing and voting however I want. We joke about a radicalized GOP, but it's not like they are that different from Democrats. It's not as if I dropped everything and decided to become a Communist. Then a conversion might make some sensibility, but c'mon - Episcopalian vs. Catholic? What's the difference except that my grandparents built the Churches of one. Sure the former has some nice things (as do Catholics I guess), but it's not mine.

As for your final point, I do believe you have the semblance of a culture, but I believe it really needs to have a lasting impact that many are aware of for it to be extremely meaningful for society at-large to recognize it. Certainly not a knock. I don't doubt that is could happen, but if it ended today, what would be its history? A loose definition of culture, sure, but I'm looking for something a bit deeper.

Goodnight