Metatheism

[Slander and/or Libel]

From what searches I've done, this term is already in use in some places, but it's not well-defined, so I'm co-opting it for my own use.

I've been an atheist (weak atheist, strong agnostic) for the last 10+ years. My wife is a Catholic. It's been somewhat of a bone of contention between us, especially when it comes to how we plan to raise our children. I used to be a lot more hardline on the evils of religion, but I've softened quite a bit on that front.

Last weekend my wife and I took our kids to the local United Church of Christ as a compromise. They're very liberal, and the sermon was something that would likely make fundamentalist heads explode to hear. As I recited the words of the Apostles' Creed in the program, I started to recontextualize what "I believe" means. The church and its members are of like mind with me and my wife on their aims for the world. They view the world through this particular lens, of faith, through the story of the Bible.

When I said those words, "I believe in Jesus Christ, His only son, our Lord," I struggled, because I don't really believe in that, factually. But I realized that I believe in what that story represents to these people, and I believe that I can find and share meaning in that. I'd still say I'm an atheist, but I've come to the point where I think whether or not God exists is a less interesting question than what the story about God impels you to do in this world.

I'm calling it metatheism, in my head, because for me it's dressed up in the trappings of theism, but not really concerned with (in my view) uninteresting questions of existence or nonexistence. Has anyone ever heard of something like this or thought this way before?

[°Leprechaun]

How does the phrase "Spiritual but not superstitious" work for you?

[Slander and/or Libel]

I'm not sure. I'm not viewing it spiritually so much as practically. The church that we went to is quite liberal and active in justice movements of various sorts all over the place, and that appeals to me. If you want to define "spiritual" very broadly, then I suppose so, but I think that would water down that word so much to make it almost meaningless.

[°Leprechaun]

I think that the term "spiritual" is somewhat hard to define. The idea of Buddhism is that it is a practice rather than a religion. It sounds like what you are refering to is Christianity as a practice rather than a religion. Also, there are people who call themselves "atheists for Jesus".

[Slander and/or Libel]

It's poised to be a practice for me, and not a religion. Sure. I guess what I feel like that doesn't capture is the idea that since my ends wind up coinciding with the ends of these other folks, even though I don't embrace their religion in the way they do, I can join with them in it, and get something out of it as well, as a story (by which I don't quite mean the Bible as literature, but more like the story about the Bible that this group tells, which leads them to their concrete goals).

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

It sounds like you might be interested in narrative theology. Many or even most narrative theologians do believe in God in the conventional sense, but they're also very interested in the same sorts of questions that you're discussing, and understand the nature of the Church in a similar way.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I'd still say I'm an atheist, but I've come to the point where I think whether or not God exists is a less interesting question than what the story about God impels you to do in this world.

I definitely agree with that. I'm an agnostic, so my answer to the question of God's existence is basically *shrug* - I think it's a pointless question since there's no actual way to know. But religion as a sociogical phenomenon and a source of philosophical perspectives is very interesting.

[Why]

So you like what their religion motivates them to do and it is something you are motivated to do also but based on a different motivation?

[Slander and/or Libel]

Yeah, basically. I'm coming at it from a different motivation, but I'm also tired of the same adolescent atheist arguments about the existence of God. I'm going back to the church tomorrow, and I'm wondering about the tension if I am vocally a non believer (in the facts of the existence of God) but simultaneously a believer (in the goals of this particular church in the world), and I'm wondering if I can effectively come to appreciate this lens through which they arrive at those goals on my own terms.

[afleitch]

Yeah, basically. I'm coming at it from a different motivation, but I'm also tired of the same adolescent atheist arguments about the existence of God. I'm going back to the church tomorrow, and I'm wondering about the tension if I am vocally a non believer (in the facts of the existence of God) but simultaneously a believer (in the goals of this particular church in the world), and I'm wondering if I can effectively come to appreciate this lens through which they arrive at those goals on my own terms.

But your going with your children. Surely what you want for them is more important. Do you think your children 'need god' and why? That's more important than what you think or get out of it. As an atheist I've attended many church services and done voluntary work. It doesn't detract from the fact I think it's hokum. And I have no reason to think otherwise. And I know I'm doing things because I feel the need to without any spiritual catalyst. Churches that put 'I do' over 'I believe' can often be good 'communities' but so to can all groups without any religious bent.

[Slander and/or Libel]

I don't know that I think my children "need God," but my wife is religious and this has felt to me like a good compromise.

[muon2]

As a member of the UCC (and past moderator of a congregation) I think your choice may work for you and your family. The UCC is very open to people searching for meaningful lives, and in this case it sounds like meaningful for you is social relevancy. I don't know the particulars of your congregation, but I don't think they would be offended by your lack of belief.

[Slander and/or Libel]

I appreciate that perspective. I did feel like I got something out of the service last week, even apart from just the community aspect, and I'm looking forward to going this week. I think stories are powerful tools to build frameworks for real good around, and I can get behind this story in the way that these folks tell it.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

A lot of people are religious for the ritualistic aspects of the whole affair. That's how it's been since polytheistic times - very few people are orthodox or even know much about their religions, but subscribe for a communal sense of belonging.

[muon2]

A lot of people are religious for the ritualistic aspects of the whole affair. That's how it's been since polytheistic times - very few people are orthodox or even know much about their religions, but subscribe for a communal sense of belonging.

I wouldn't lump the ritual in with the communal. Most people who are religious are so because of the sense of belonging and the ethics of that community. Relatively few are religious for the ritual. It's part of why there are so many loosely organized, non-denominational churches that have gained popularity over the last 30 years in my area while traditional churches have lost membership.

[Famous Mortimer]

This is a terrible Moderate Hero position.

Either Jesus was real and he was magic or he wasn't.

If he was just some guy who was kinda nice (and made a bunch of weird comments about the apocalypse and how you should never get divorced) there is no reason to hold him in high esteem.

There have been tons of nice people throughout history.

[Slander and/or Libel]

It's not a moderate hero position. I'm not saying the truth lies between Jesus existing and not existing. I happen to think he didn't. This is a practical compromise between me and my wife, and me trying to see what I can get out of the whole thing at the same time.

[muon2]

This is a terrible Moderate Hero position.

Either Jesus was real and he was magic or he wasn't.

If he was just some guy who was kinda nice (and made a bunch of weird comments about the apocalypse and how you should never get divorced) there is no reason to hold him in high esteem.

There have been tons of nice people throughout history.

Historians are in near unanimity that Jesus existed.

Even if one doesn't accept his divinity, his teachings distinguish him as more than just a nice guy. Arguably his understanding of morals and ethics puts him at the same level that Gandhi is seen in modern times.

[afleitch]

This is a terrible Moderate Hero position.

Either Jesus was real and he was magic or he wasn't.

If he was just some guy who was kinda nice (and made a bunch of weird comments about the apocalypse and how you should never get divorced) there is no reason to hold him in high esteem.

There have been tons of nice people throughout history.

Historians are in near unanimity that Jesus existed.

Even if one doesn't accept his divinity, his teachings distinguish him as more than just a nice guy. Arguably his understanding of morals and ethics puts him at the same level that Gandhi is seen in modern times.

Only if Ghandi’s teachings were only finally being written down now, some 67 years after he died. And what’s declared legitimate and or heretical about what Ghandi said (if he said it at all) isn’t finalised for at least two hundred years from now. That’s the more apt comparison

The fact that ‘historians believe a man called Jesus existed’ means absolutely nothing in respect to what’s attributed to him. Jesus’ ‘inheritance’ as a figure worthy of a special respect is only a hangover from religiously derived reverence passed down over the past millennium of western thought. The idea that what he said was somehow revolutionary in human thought/ethics is a great disservice to other less popular figures of his time and place and also condescendingly ‘Western’ in its outlook.

The Gospels are re-heated Stoicism with obligations of worship contained within them. The fact that they are the most popular works to contain those thoughts (and let’s not forget that early Christians were quite busy literally destroying similar works as heretical), doesn’t mean they are exclusive. Indeed, Seneca, Marcus Aurelius, Epictetus etc never said that their view was ‘the truth’ and that they themselves required worship or reverence either directly or as messengers for some deity. The fact that the Gospels require you to accept Jesus as your saviour makes the statements attributed to Jesus morally 'grey'.

[Antonio the Sixth]

This is a terrible Moderate Hero position.

Either Jesus was real and he was magic or he wasn't.

If he was just some guy who was kinda nice (and made a bunch of weird comments about the apocalypse and how you should never get divorced) there is no reason to hold him in high esteem.

There have been tons of nice people throughout history.

You sig is the worst. It hurt my eyes and kills hundreds of my brain cells every time I see it. Please change it NOW.

Or better yet, leave this forum.

[Rocky Rockefeller]

I've taken to call myself philosophically Christian, rather than religious.

[Yelnoc]

I don't know that I think my children "need God," but my wife is religious and this has felt to me like a good compromise.

Whatever you decide, please carefully vet the members of your church community for potential sexual predators. "Pedophile priests" isn't just a meme, and they aren't confined to the Catholic Church. My Southern Baptist megachurch had a pedophile working as a youth leader when I was in middle school. Don't let your desire to compromise with your wife put your children at risk.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I don't know that I think my children "need God," but my wife is religious and this has felt to me like a good compromise.

Whatever you decide, please carefully vet the members of your church community for potential sexual predators. "Pedophile priests" isn't just a meme, and they aren't confined to the Catholic Church. My Southern Baptist megachurch had a pedophile working as a youth leader when I was in middle school. Don't let your desire to compromise with your wife put your children at risk.

Unfortunately, that can be a trouble with any organization that works with youths.