Gay Marriage Vote in NJ Senate on Thursday

[Marokai Backbeat]

How about they let the people of NJ vote on this?

Yeah, civil rights should always go to referenda. That's how we made such great progress with african american rights!

[Marokai Backbeat]

How about they let the people of NJ vote on this?

Yeah, civil rights should always go to referenda. That's how we made such great progress with african american rights!

I love how you pretend to support democracy.

Referenda have never been a great thing, in my opinion. People are notoriously uninformed, subject more to personal bigotry than your average legislator, and often just generally don't see the big picture.

Several examples off the top of my head. Gay marriage is of course one of the first that comes to mind. Passing the legislature of Maine, and supported by the legislature of California, yet, narrowly fails in both states because of a silly referendum. Individual rights should never be left up for a vote. If we followed the referendum approach, rights for women, blacks, gays, and a whole host of other sections of society would be set back decades, at least. Can you imagine slavery being put up for a referendum in the 1800s?

California also has serious budget issues, caused mainly by silly rules in amending the constitution and an unwilling public to go along with a damn thing being done. California is essentially bankrupt, and almost nothing good is getting done about that.

Colorado voters also made an extremely stupid move in approving the Taxpayer Bill of Rights, or TABOR, because it sounded like a cute and good idea to the Average Joe that can't, apparently, do any sort of research on his own or see the forest instead of the trees. Instead TABOR passed, and ravaged Colorado, causing an uncountable number of difficulties and funding shortfalls. It was so bad, voters in Colorado changed their minds and suspended most of TABOR for the time being.

Switzerland also had the infamous referendum last year banning minarets. The Swiss government was vocally against the ban, being more, you know, intelligent, but the voters approved it anyway and the Swiss now have a lovely xenophobic image I'm sure they're proud of.

The list goes on and on. Voters simply cannot be trusted to make direct decisions most of the time, because they're too subject to their own bigotry or personal feelings and are grossly uninformed. Because voters are too dumb to make all the decisions, we have a system where voters elect more intelligent and dedicated people to make decisions for them, and evaluate their progress every 2/4/6 years. There are countless, countless, examples of referenda going wrong, and that's why I'm opposed to them.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I come from a country where we have same sex marriage and where referendums are extremely rare. I think that a few years ago some Catholic Church leaders proposed that redefinition of marriage should be put into a ballot, just after the law legalizing gay marriage had been passed. But not even the main opposition party, People's Party (which opposes the law and has reported it as uncostitutional) asked for that.

So it feels strange that a country as the United States, bastion of equality and freedom, leaves the rights of a minority in the hands of a majority which may be uninformed, biased by religious or ideological fundamentalism and munipulated by the media.  In this way we leave people unprotected and their rights denied by their fellow citizens. I don't think this is fair.

I do not know if these law is going to pass in New Jersey. I don't know the composition of the  Senate, and I ignore what kind of members it has. Anyway, it's only a matter of time. Because in the end, all the walls fall. Opposition to gay marriage is not an exception.

Welcome to the forum

[Marokai Backbeat]

I've already been stupid enough to argue that issue with you before. I just figured Vepres would know better with you.

So that's a no, then.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I am a libertarian, but I feel that liberty and equality can and should only be implemented if the people support it.  That wasn't the case in Virginia, and it isn't the case with same-sex marriage in the South today.

In other words, you're not a libertarian. You're a populist.

Yeah I must say I was having doubts about his supposed libertarianism myself.