The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown

[Marokai Backbeat]

I hope that nobody will faint with surprise.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wisconsin-gov-walker-ginned-up-budget-shortfall-to-undercut-worker-rights.php

Wisconsin's new Republican governor has framed his assault on public worker's collective bargaining rights as a needed measure of fiscal austerity during tough times.

The reality is radically different. Unlike true austerity measures -- service rollbacks, furloughs, and other temporary measures that cause pain but save money -- rolling back worker's bargaining rights by itself saves almost nothing on its own. But Walker's doing it anyhow, to knock down a barrier and allow him to cut state employee benefits immediately.

Furthermore, this broadside comes less than a month after the state's fiscal bureau -- the Wisconsin equivalent of the Congressional Budget Office -- concluded that Wisconsin isn't even in need of austerity measures, and could conclude the fiscal year with a surplus. In fact, they say that the current budget shortfall is a direct result of tax cut policies Walker enacted in his first days in office.

"Walker was not forced into a budget repair bill by circumstances beyond he control," says Jack Norman, research director at the Institute for Wisconsin Future -- a public interest think tank. "He wanted a budget repair bill and forced it by pushing through tax cuts... so he could rush through these other changes."

This is just sickening. This entirely issue honestly just leaves me speechless. How people actually defend this behavior is stunning. (Though maybe, I guess, I shouldn't be as surprised as I am.)

[Brittain33]

Or maybe Walker just hates public employee unions in the abstract,

They work to elect members of the opposing party, and are effective at it. (maybe not in 2010.)

[opebo]

What sheer nonsense. The most valuable people of society are the private sector who pay taxes into the government, not the people who take money out.

No, you've got that backwards - the rich exact their privileges from a gencide upon the poor.  Even if one prefers to be an exploiter (who wouldn't?), the whole system rests upon the back of the tortured worker, so he is absolutely necessary, and hence 'valuable'.  Happily 'poor people spring up out of the ground like mushrooms', as the old Thai saying goes, and so there are always more to use.  But there's the rub - they are useful, something a rich person by definition cannot be.

[Insula Dei]

I never got why the right deems it necessary to dmeonize public sector workers. Not only is it bad politics (most people will know at least one public sector worker and have a reasonable chance to find out how the 'overpaid and overpensioned' thing is BS), it's also actively  going after the most valuable part of society, the very people we rely on every day and who are in fact ridiculously underpaid when compared to the private sector. I also find it repulsive on a personal level, as almost my entire direct family consists from teachers and othe public sector workers.

What sheer nonsense. The most valuable people of society are the private sector who pay taxes into the government, not the people who take money out.

Funny how a small-government conservative like yourself seems to believe the goal of society is to put money into the government, and not to, oh I don't know, enable people to develop themselves and realize their potential. Your beloved entrepreneurs wouldn't be anywhere without their education, your prvate sector wouldn't be anywhere without roads and infrastructure,  and you yourself wouldn't be anywhere without administrative services to make sure you get to live the fantastic American life.

I hope that nobody will faint with surprise.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wisconsin-gov-walker-ginned-up-budget-shortfall-to-undercut-worker-rights.php

Wisconsin's new Republican governor has framed his assault on public worker's collective bargaining rights as a needed measure of fiscal austerity during tough times.

The reality is radically different. Unlike true austerity measures -- service rollbacks, furloughs, and other temporary measures that cause pain but save money -- rolling back worker's bargaining rights by itself saves almost nothing on its own. But Walker's doing it anyhow, to knock down a barrier and allow him to cut state employee benefits immediately.

Furthermore, this broadside comes less than a month after the state's fiscal bureau -- the Wisconsin equivalent of the Congressional Budget Office -- concluded that Wisconsin isn't even in need of austerity measures, and could conclude the fiscal year with a surplus. In fact, they say that the current budget shortfall is a direct result of tax cut policies Walker enacted in his first days in office.

"Walker was not forced into a budget repair bill by circumstances beyond he control," says Jack Norman, research director at the Institute for Wisconsin Future -- a public interest think tank. "He wanted a budget repair bill and forced it by pushing through tax cuts... so he could rush through these other changes."

This is just sickening. This entirely issue honestly just leaves me speechless. How people actually defend this behavior is stunning. (Though maybe, I guess, I shouldn't be as surprised as I am.)

You nail it.

[Landslide Lyndon]

I hope that nobody will faint with surprise.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wisconsin-gov-walker-ginned-up-budget-shortfall-to-undercut-worker-rights.php

Wisconsin's new Republican governor has framed his assault on public worker's collective bargaining rights as a needed measure of fiscal austerity during tough times.

The reality is radically different. Unlike true austerity measures -- service rollbacks, furloughs, and other temporary measures that cause pain but save money -- rolling back worker's bargaining rights by itself saves almost nothing on its own. But Walker's doing it anyhow, to knock down a barrier and allow him to cut state employee benefits immediately.

Furthermore, this broadside comes less than a month after the state's fiscal bureau -- the Wisconsin equivalent of the Congressional Budget Office -- concluded that Wisconsin isn't even in need of austerity measures, and could conclude the fiscal year with a surplus. In fact, they say that the current budget shortfall is a direct result of tax cut policies Walker enacted in his first days in office.

"Walker was not forced into a budget repair bill by circumstances beyond he control," says Jack Norman, research director at the Institute for Wisconsin Future -- a public interest think tank. "He wanted a budget repair bill and forced it by pushing through tax cuts... so he could rush through these other changes."

This is just sickening. This entirely issue honestly just leaves me speechless. How people actually defend this behavior is stunning. (Though maybe, I guess, I shouldn't be as surprised as I am.)

Apparently some people are pinning for the good ol' days of the Gilded Age. You know, before this socialist scumbag FDR allowed the unwashed masses to obtain rights and privileges.

[krazen1211]

I never got why the right deems it necessary to dmeonize public sector workers. Not only is it bad politics (most people will know at least one public sector worker and have a reasonable chance to find out how the 'overpaid and overpensioned' thing is BS), it's also actively  going after the most valuable part of society, the very people we rely on every day and who are in fact ridiculously underpaid when compared to the private sector. I also find it repulsive on a personal level, as almost my entire direct family consists from teachers and othe public sector workers.

What sheer nonsense. The most valuable people of society are the private sector who pay taxes into the government, not the people who take money out.

Funny how a small-government conservative like yourself seems to believe the goal of society is to put money into the government, and not to, oh I don't know, enable people to develop themselves and realize their potential. Your beloved entrepreneurs wouldn't be anywhere without their education, your prvate sector wouldn't be anywhere without roads and infrastructure,  and you yourself wouldn't be anywhere without administrative services to make sure you get to live the fantastic American life.

This is the standard liberal response that is, as usual, full of dung.

US Real education spending has doubled in the past 20 years, and teacher rolls have increased by nearly 50%.

People were realizing their economic potential in times past with much less education bloat.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

The protesters in Madison are of course heroes, and I hope that they inspire similar protests in other cities.

I hope it inspires the issuance of pink slips to them, myself. Different strokes for different folks.

As do I.

So why should these people be fired for making too much, SS?  You make more than them and are not fired.

Not fired for making too much money... fired for skipping out on their jobs.  Did you really need to resort to a strawman argument to attempt to prove a point?

[krazen1211]

Apparently some people are pinning for the good ol' days of the Gilded Age. You know, before this socialist scumbag FDR allowed the unwashed masses to obtain rights and privileges.

I really can't stop laughing at the idiocy of this statement.



Franklin Delano Roosevelt "Meticulous attention," the president insisted in 1937, "should be paid to the special relations and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the Government....The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service." The reason? F.D.R. believed that "[a] strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to obstruct the operations of government until their demands are satisfied. Such action looking toward the paralysis of government by those who have sworn to support it is unthinkable and intolerable."

[Ban my account ffs!]

http://www.startribune.com/local/116399599.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUCDEaLDyE7DyaU

Excellent news!  Also, the protests keep growing in Madison with an estimated 25,000 people today.  I hope it keeps growing and growing.  That should give the MN GOP pause as well when they try to force their extremist agenda through.  Luckily we have Dayton with plenty of veto pens at the ready.

[Insula Dei]

I never got why the right deems it necessary to dmeonize public sector workers. Not only is it bad politics (most people will know at least one public sector worker and have a reasonable chance to find out how the 'overpaid and overpensioned' thing is BS), it's also actively  going after the most valuable part of society, the very people we rely on every day and who are in fact ridiculously underpaid when compared to the private sector. I also find it repulsive on a personal level, as almost my entire direct family consists from teachers and othe public sector workers.

What sheer nonsense. The most valuable people of society are the private sector who pay taxes into the government, not the people who take money out.

Funny how a small-government conservative like yourself seems to believe the goal of society is to put money into the government, and not to, oh I don't know, enable people to develop themselves and realize their potential. Your beloved entrepreneurs wouldn't be anywhere without their education, your prvate sector wouldn't be anywhere without roads and infrastructure,  and you yourself wouldn't be anywhere without administrative services to make sure you get to live the fantastic American life.

This is the standard liberal response that is, as usual, full of dung.

US Real education spending has doubled in the past 20 years, and teacher rolls have increased by nearly 50%.

People were realizing their economic potential in times past with much less education bloat.

Part of me is hoping you're not really that border-line moronic. Did you just really mention how everything was better before people got educated? Really?








I mean really?












No, really?

^{_{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_in_Great_Britain_during_the_Industrial_Revolution}}

[opebo]

Not fired for making too much money... fired for skipping out on their jobs.  Did you really need to resort to a strawman argument to attempt to prove a point?

They're striking, Inks.

[krazen1211]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

No, I didn't say that at all.

Reading comprehension is fundamental...you must have gone to Madison public schools.

[opebo]

Freedom fighters!

[opebo]

Apparently some people are pinning for the good ol' days of the Gilded Age. You know, before this socialist scumbag FDR allowed the unwashed masses to obtain rights and privileges.

I really can't stop laughing at the idiocy of this statement.

You mean because inequality is already worse than in the Gilded Age?

[Insula Dei]

Freedom fighters!

[minionofmidas]

I would certainly flee Wisconsin.

[cinyc]

What sheer nonsense. The most valuable people of society are the private sector who pay taxes into the government, not the people who take money out.

No, you've got that backwards - the rich exact their privileges from a gencide upon the poor.  Even if one prefers to be an exploiter (who wouldn't?), the whole system rests upon the back of the tortured worker, so he is absolutely necessary, and hence 'valuable'.  Happily 'poor people spring up out of the ground like mushrooms', as the old Thai saying goes, and so there are always more to use.  But there's the rub - they are useful, something a rich person by definition cannot be.

Your over-the-top socialist propaganda makes no sense.  There is no genocide on the poor.  That is, unless in socialist doublespeak, genocide means ever-increasing life expectancy and living standards.

And how can you see no difference between a government that takes money from its citizens at gunpoint and a the private sector, which only takes money from those willing to spend it?

The day of reckoning has arrived.  Those who pay the bloated salaries and pensions of public sector employees are sick and tired of it.  That's what Wisconsin voters said in 2010.  The governor is doing the work of the people who voted for him.

[Ban my account ffs!]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

No, I didn't say that at all.

Reading comprehension is fundamental...you must have gone to Madison public schools.

Actually, he's from Belgium, speaks Dutch as his mother tongue, and is discussing this issue in English, which is not his first language.  And I dare say his comprehension of English is every bit as good as yours.  How many languages do you speak, Krazen?  Or is learning another language soshullist?

[Ban my account ffs!]

What sheer nonsense. The most valuable people of society are the private sector who pay taxes into the government, not the people who take money out.

No, you've got that backwards - the rich exact their privileges from a gencide upon the poor.  Even if one prefers to be an exploiter (who wouldn't?), the whole system rests upon the back of the tortured worker, so he is absolutely necessary, and hence 'valuable'.  Happily 'poor people spring up out of the ground like mushrooms', as the old Thai saying goes, and so there are always more to use.  But there's the rub - they are useful, something a rich person by definition cannot be.

Your over-the-top socialist propaganda makes no sense.  There is no genocide on the poor.  That is, unless in socialist doublespeak, genocide means ever-increasing life expectancy and living standards.

And how can you see no difference between a government that takes money from its citizens at gunpoint and a the private sector, which only takes money from those willing to spend it?

The day of reckoning has arrived.  Those who pay the bloated salaries and pensions of public sector employees are sick and tired of it.  That's what Wisconsin voters said in 2010.  The governor is doing the work of the people who voted for him.

That argument is so tired and bloated.  You can easily go without paying taxes.  Just don't work or buy anything or own property!

The same could be said about the private sector.... where purchasing food from a grocery store is "voluntary"... but if you didn't do it.. like not working, owning property, or buying anything at all... would make life much harder.

So just because you get to choose which grocery store you go to... doesn't make it any more voluntary.

[opebo]

Your over-the-top socialist propaganda makes no sense.  There is no genocide on the poor.  That is, unless in socialist doublespeak, genocide means ever-increasing life expectancy and living standards.

Their lives are used up to pay for the privileges of their owners, cinyc.  They're only killed immediately if they get out of line.

And how can you see no difference between a government that takes money from its citizens at gunpoint and a the private sector, which only takes money from those willing to spend it?

Private property is enforced at gunpoint, kinyc, with all the prisons to back it up.

The day of reckoning has arrived.  Those who pay the bloated salaries and pensions of public sector employees are sick and tired of it.  That's what Wisconsin voters said in 2010.  The governor is doing the work of the people who voted for him.

Of course, but the point is that those people are know-nothing dupes.

[Landslide Lyndon]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

No, I didn't say that at all.

Reading comprehension is fundamental...you must have gone to Madison public schools.

Actually, he's from Belgium, speaks Dutch as his mother tongue, and is discussing this issue in English, which is not his first language.  And I dare say his comprehension of English is every bit as good as yours.  How many languages do you speak, Krazen?  Or is learning another language soshullist?

He must have learned that language when he lived in the state of virgniah.

[krazen1211]

Apparently some people are pinning for the good ol' days of the Gilded Age. You know, before this socialist scumbag FDR allowed the unwashed masses to obtain rights and privileges.

I really can't stop laughing at the idiocy of this statement.

You mean because inequality is already worse than in the Gilded Age?

No, genius.

Rather, because FDR strongly opposed the idea of public sector unions, especially public sector union strikes like we are seeing in Madison today.



http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=15445


Organization on their part to present their views on such matters is both natural and logical, but meticulous attention should be paid to the special relationships and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the Government.

All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management. The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress. Accordingly, administrative officials and employees alike are governed and guided, and in many instances restricted, by laws which establish policies, procedures, or rules in personnel matters.

Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of Government employees. Upon employees in the Federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people, whose interests and welfare require orderliness and continuity in the conduct of Government activities. This obligation is paramount. Since their own services have to do with the functioning of the Government, a strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government until their demands are satisfied. Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government by those who have sworn to support it, is unthinkable and intolerable.

[opebo]

Your over-the-top socialist propaganda makes no sense.  There is no genocide on the poor.  That is, unless in socialist doublespeak, genocide means ever-increasing life expectancy and living standards.

Anyway its only because of unions and government redistribution that there have been, in the past, some increases in life expectancy and living standards.

[krazen1211]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

No, I didn't say that at all.

Reading comprehension is fundamental...you must have gone to Madison public schools.

Actually, he's from Belgium, speaks Dutch as his mother tongue, and is discussing this issue in English, which is not his first language.  And I dare say his comprehension of English is every bit as good as yours.  How many languages do you speak, Krazen?  Or is learning another language soshullist?

If that was true, he wouldn't have somehow confused my correct point of the number of excess teachers that this nation has (about 1.5 million worth) and excess spending (about $200 billion worth) with the idea of eliminating public education entirely.

[Insula Dei]

Krazen, your literal words:

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I think that even in the US education now is better than it was in the Fifties.