The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown

[Landslide Lyndon]

I can't wait to see the further shell-shacking the Democratic caucus gets come 2012 because of this stunt.

Yeah, just like Republicans were punished because they filibustered everything in sight for the last two years.

This isn't a filibuster.

Semantics. The overall effect is the same.
Republicans could as well skip Washington and nothing would change since a cloture motion needs 60 votes to be adopted, not 41 to reject it.

No, because they can still get stuff done while filibustering.

Like what? Passing resolutions about how everybody loves puppies?

Like any other business.  You're implying that they accomplish nothing.  If that were the case, there would be nothing to filibuster...

Exactly. Remember when Dick Shelby put a blanket hold on everything because the administration denied him money for some pork barrel project?
Or when the Republicans declared than they would filibuster everything if the senate didn't pass the tax cuts for the rich?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

I can't wait to see the further shell-shacking the Democratic caucus gets come 2012 because of this stunt.

Yeah, just like Republicans were punished because they filibustered everything in sight for the last two years.

This isn't a filibuster.

Semantics. The overall effect is the same.
Republicans could as well skip Washington and nothing would change since a cloture motion needs 60 votes to be adopted, not 41 to reject it.

No, because they can still get stuff done while filibustering.

Like what? Passing resolutions about how everybody loves puppies?

Like any other business.  You're implying that they accomplish nothing.  If that were the case, there would be nothing to filibuster...

Exactly. Remember when Dick Shelby put a blanket hold on everything because the administration denied him money for some pork barrel project?
Or when the Republicans declared than they would filibuster everything if the senate didn't pass the tax cuts for the rich?

What's your point?

[Franzl]

His point is that both methods obstruct legislative business effectively. Doesn't matter what you call it.

[Landslide Lyndon]

What's your point?

That after abusing filibuster for the last two years in such an unprecedented way, Republicans have no right to complain about what Democratic legislators do in Wisconsin right now.

His point is that both methods obstruct legislative business effectively. Doesn't matter what you call it.

Bingo! Semantics are irrelevant.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

What's your point?

That after abusing filibuster for the last two years in such an unprecedented way, Republicans have no right to complain about what Democratic legislators do in Wisconsin right now.

His point is that both methods obstruct legislative business effectively. Doesn't matter what you call it.

Bingo! Semantics are irrelevant.

I complained about the methods the Republicans used.  And you've actually proved my point...these methods have a tendency to progress and get worse.  So while the Democrats in WI may only be doing this now for a major bill, it could turn into a usual thing after a while.

But no, these 2 things are not the same.  There is a difference between a filibuster and skipping town.  One is within the rules, and one is not.

[Landslide Lyndon]

What's your point?

That after abusing filibuster for the last two years in such an unprecedented way, Republicans have no right to complain about what Democratic legislators do in Wisconsin right now.

His point is that both methods obstruct legislative business effectively. Doesn't matter what you call it.

Bingo! Semantics are irrelevant.

I complained about the methods the Republicans used.  And you've actually proved my point...these methods have a tendency to progress and get worse.  So while the Democrats in WI may only be doing this now for a major bill, it could turn into a usual thing after a while.

But no, these 2 things are not the same.  There is a difference between a filibuster and skipping town.  One is within the rules, and one is not.

1)I somehow doubt that it will become something ordinary. Unlike the filibuster, this one requires a certain effort and some level of discomfort for the lawmakers that apply it.

2)I don't think that it's technically illegal to be absent from the legislature. What if you're sick or you have to make an out of state trip for personal matters?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

It may not be illegal, per se, but they're not excused from being absent.  (But I'm off to bed... so if you post, I'll reply in the morning, I'm not ignoring you. )

[Guderian]

Massive public sector layoffs would be better, but this will do I guess. I really don't see why do people that spend workdays picking their noses and surfing the interwebz need to unionize anyway.

[phk]

Massive public sector layoffs would be better, but this will do I guess. I really don't see why do people that spend workdays picking their noses and surfing the interwebz need to unionize anyway.

[bgwah]

This thread is a good example of why I am not a Republican.

[Marokai Backbeat]

This video pretty much describes how I feel without me feeling the need to go on a long tangent about it myself.

This has nothing to do with the budget, this has nothing to do with anything. This is about politics. It is about crippling the Democratic Party in Wisconsin and beyond. This is about winning elections. Nothing less.

px,

cinyc is citing Politifact (Pulitzer prize, called Michelle Bachmann "beyond preposterous", acknowledged that the stimulus created 1 million jobs, etc. etc. etc).

You're citing TPM, an obviously unhinged Madison newspaper editorial, and a legislative document with no context which you are almost surely misinterpreting. Your story-- that a $1.5 billion deficit as of late 2010 was transformed into a $100 million surplus in early 2011, which was transformed back into a $2-3 billion deficit by $140 million in budget changes by the Walker administration is makes no sense on face. If the roles were reversed, all of us would be saying that it's another example of how the tea party, the birthers, etc. have driven the GOP off the rails. Let's not do the same thing.

I haven't taken the time to look up anything about the budget situation in Wisconsin, so I don't pretend to know everything about it. (Because, frankly, this issue has nothing to do with the budget. The budget is the excuse.)

If this was about the deficit in Wisconsin, why pass nearly 200 million dollars in tax cuts as one of your first actions in a state with a supposedly critical budget situation? If unions must sacrifice, why not even try to negotiate with them? Why go whole hog and effectively remove the ability for these unions to negotiate and collectively bargain at all? If you're going to take this drastic action, why exempt the three unions that, conveniently, supported your election bid, while taking the knife to everyone else?

This has nothing to do with the budget. This isn't even about public employee unions trimming up their salaries at all. Negotiating over cuts is one thing, and maybe you could even provide a winning argument that that is what is needed, but Walker didn't negotiate, he never wanted to negotiate, he proposed something and wanted it passed immediately that went straight for the jugular of the unions in Wisconsin. (Which, in and of itself, actually has nothing to do with the deficit anyway.)

This is about politics. It's about winning elections. What we are witnessing here is the first major power grab against unions in the new modern American economy. The powers that be have taken off their gloves. (God, I hate sounding like this, but it's the truth.) They're not hiding anymore, they're not pretending anymore. They have the numbers right now and while they've got them, they're going wild. If it isn't stopped here, the consequences will be dire, not just politically, but economically and socially. All because of Wisconsin.

[krazen1211]

Outside economists have estimated a large budget deficit over the next 3 years.

http://www.lafollette.wisc.edu/publications/workingpapers/reschovsky2010-016.pdf

[krazen1211]

The closed schools are in MADISON. People in Madison aren't going to vote Republican over that.

The people of Madison now have to take off from work to babysit their kids. Have fun.

[krazen1211]

If this was about the deficit in Wisconsin, why pass nearly 200 million dollars in tax cuts as one of your first actions in a state with a supposedly critical budget situation? If unions must sacrifice, why not even try to negotiate with them? Why go whole hog and effectively remove the ability for these unions to negotiate and collectively bargain at all? If you're going to take this drastic action, why exempt the three unions that, conveniently, supported your election bid, while taking the knife to everyone else?

The unions never came into this with good faith. That's why, after the Republican shellacking of the Democrats last year, the unions tried to ram through a contract in the lame duck session. They turned on their former Senate Majority Leader when he decided to vote against them.

[Brittain33]

The closed schools are in MADISON. People in Madison aren't going to vote Republican over that.

The people of Madison now have to take off from work to babysit their kids. Have fun.

Around this time two years ago I was cackling over the prospect of Marco Rubio splitting the Republican party and prevent Crist from winning an election. Have fun.

[krazen1211]

Around this time two years ago I was cackling over the prospect of Marco Rubio splitting the Republican party and prevent Crist from winning an election. Have fun.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

[Brittain33]

Around this time two years ago I was cackling over the prospect of Marco Rubio splitting the Republican party and prevent Crist from winning an election. Have fun.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

Your pile of assumptions about how this plays out.

[memphis]

Well, it's good to know which side you are on.

This thread has shed light on that.

All that matters in politics, is if you're on the side of the haves, or the have nots.

That's awfully simplistic.  Who are the have-nots here?  Unionized public employees or those who make substantially less than them yet pay their salaries?

I thought that only richers paid taxes in GOPland?

[krazen1211]

Your pile of assumptions about how this plays out.

It's not an assumption. That's a statement of the last 3 days. Madison schools have been closed all week.

[Brittain33]

I bet you, just bet you, that the deficit commission, that outfit Obama is keeping his distance from that was his creation, and on which  all of his appointees signed off the plan that got a healthy majority of both parties on the commission, zeroed that one out. Wanna bet? Let's get on with it!

Could you provide a link showing that Bowles' and Simpson's mark-up got a healthy majority of both parties and all of Obama's appointees--and explain why we shouldn't take seriously that they were supposed to get 14 out of 18 signatories and couldn't do that? Why put that requirement in if it's not operative?

Did Boehner come out and promise to bring the commission's plan to a vote in the House? If not, do you think Obama coming forward would create a dynamic where he'd become more likely to do so?

You want Obama to tell America to eat its broccoli and skip the dessert. I get that. I wanted Bush to be honest about things to his base, too, even while he was flying around the country campaigning on a "have your cake and eat it too" (tax cuts are good for the country and pay for themselves) platform and attacking people who said "you can't do that" as trying to hurt people. You can rate Obama a D, an F, a N/A, etc. because he's not singlehandedly governing as a fiscal conservative. I'll rate Congressional Republicans the same for proving to him last December with their extortion of a massive tax cut that they don't care about the deficit, either. Obama can't lead people who will march in the opposite direction from what he says. Like the Republicans, he has primary voters and party supporters he has to respond to. Why should the Democratic primary voters who are poorer and less secure than the average American be expected to be more responsible adherents of Republican ideology than the millions of Medicare-grubbing Tea Party marchers who we're supposed to coddle as they play the "tax the man behind that tree" game?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

To the best of my knowledge, it's the latter. They structured their compensation as capital gains rather than income because they can, and because they can bribe enough Congress members to keep the game going, plus Wall Street has well-placed Democrats in the Senate from the New York metro area who accept that the business of America is CNBC.

[Brittain33]

Your pile of assumptions about how this plays out.

It's not an assumption. That's a statement of the last 3 days. Madison schools have been closed all week.

You're being disingenuous. You're talking about how Wisconsin's going to swing even more R than the historic victories in 2010 based on Dems fighting back for what they believe in 21 months before the next elections.

[Zarn]

The state troopers told to go after the dems refused and the capital police ignored the governors order to clear out the protesters, union solidarity is strong here.
As for teachers getting the "Blue Flu" i would prefer they wait until the strike is officially called.

Refusing to enforce the law eh, assuming that it is the law? If so, the next step is the national guard. The state troopers work for the state right?  I wonder how they should be dealt with, they are refusing to follow orders.

If Walker tries to call out the guard he has no future in politics no matter how heroic it seems to conservatives, Americans do not enjoy the sight of the military beating up peaceful protesters, some of us learned a thing or two from the sixties.
And if he does end up paying us like they pay teachers in Mississipi or some other anti worker state Wisconsin will get the same low quality education they get, not everyone can afford to send their kids to a fancy private school like Walker and his rich buddies who will end up getting the money they take from the teachers in another tax break.

If someone wants to be a teacher, they will, regardless of money. But there are some who become teachers for job security and money. They don't want to be teachers. It's just a job to them. These types ignore the importance of education and go on strike.

[cinyc]

You should check your sources because they are rather spotty. Then again like your beloved FOX you care more about creating narratives rather than telling the truth.

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/editorial/article_61064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html

In fact, like just about every other state in the country, Wisconsin is managing in a weak economy. The difference is that Wisconsin is managing better -- or at least it had been managing better until Walker took over. Despite shortfalls in revenue following the economic downturn that hit its peak with the Bush-era stock market collapse, the state has balanced budgets, maintained basic services and high-quality schools, and kept employment and business development steadier than the rest of the country. It has managed so well, in fact, that the nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau recently released a memo detailing how the state will end the 2009-2011 budget biennium with a budget surplus.

In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state’s budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million.

(snip)_

Here is the document. Enjoy reading.

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf

Funny.  I haven't cited Fox News once in this debate.

You are conflating a surplus that the state may or may not end up with at the end of the current two-year fiscal period (2009-2011) with what every observer I've read, partisan or otherwise, sees as a projected deficit at the end of the NEXT two-year fiscal period (2011-2013).   They might not agree whether that deficit is going to be $2.1 billion or $3.6 billion, but nobody I know of, even the legislative report you linked, denies there will be a deficit that the current government needs to close.  In fact, the legislative report you linked expects 2011-2013 general fund tax revenues to be LOWER than their last forecast, meaning the expected budget gap would likely be higher than they last forecast.

If you bothered to read my links, you'd know that while Wisconsin's budgets may have been balanced on paper, they (like most states) have relied on gimmicks and one-shot deals to do so.  The state's comptroller, using generally accepted accounting principles, has noted that Wisconsin's budget has been out of balance every year for the past decade - and the amount of that structural deficit has been growing.   The day of reckoning has arrived.

At best, you can make the argument that but for the Republicans' tax cuts, these particular public employee givebacks wouldn't be required or could have been more limited.  But then you'd have to explain why public employee benefits are so sacrosanct that they can't be cut while other areas of the government are being slashed, too.  What makes public employee pay so special that it cannot be cut, even if doing so averts massive layoffs?  And why is requiring a vote of their ultimate employer - Wisconsin's taxpayers - before hiking public employee pay more than the rate of inflation such a terrible idea, anyway?

But you don't seem to want to have this debate.  Instead, you want to stick your head in the sand and pretend that a problem that exists in almost every state doesn't exist in Wisconsin because it is temporarily politically expedient to do so.

[krazen1211]

Your pile of assumptions about how this plays out.

It's not an assumption. That's a statement of the last 3 days. Madison schools have been closed all week.

You're being disingenuous. You're talking about how Wisconsin's going to swing even more R than the historic victories in 2010 based on Dems fighting back for what they believe in 21 months before the next elections.

That's what I believe, yeah, but that statement you quoted wasn't related to that. It was simply a mere statement of events.

I have no idea whether Madison liberals happy babysitting their kids or not. Perhaps they are.

[Brittain33]

cinyc, note that Walker goes beyond givebacks to help close a budget deficit into bona fide union-busting tactics. You and many others may feel that was an appropriate course of action for the greater good, but it also gives unions greater incentive to declare WW3 in response.