Italian Elections and Politics 2022 - Our Time to Schlein

[Famous Mortimer]

So should we take this as some sort of shift away from the League and M5S back towards the left, or was Frailis a really strong candidate?

Probably the latter, there is also localism at play. National polling suggests that there is almost a majority for the right percent-wise, and a clear majority seat wise. This is thanks to Lega of course, so how much this trend benefits Italy has yet to be seen. It's also possible the seat was a M5S-Left battleground before, so M5S losing votes to the Right pushes the left ahead.

I imagine there's also quite a large number of people who are happy to elect left-wingers at the local level but don't want to do so at the national level. Happy to give the left control of local infrastructure, not so happy to give them control of immigration policy.

[Famous Mortimer]

As an outsider, why is Salvini so wildly popular, he seems like the type who where I live in Canada would be loathed.  I realize Italy is a lot different than Canada, but still seems more like the type who might sell in some Eastern European countries, but would only appeal to your typical hard right crowd west of the former iron curtain, i.e. in the teens or 20s, not high 30s.  Likewise on policies, is his flat tax popular as won't that primarily benefit the rich and I know at least in English speaking world income inequality is a major issue?  Likewise he wants to loosen gun laws and I would think with all the mass shootings that would be a tough sell?  I can see his tough line on immigration being popular, but I would assume all major parties would to varying degrees take this.  Any insights here?

Political parties taking a hard line on immigration is pretty common. Before the year 2000, basically every party in Europe except for a few Greens and hard leftists took a line that would today be called fascist.

Almost none of them stayed true to that line in office.

The League and Fidesz are basically the only parties in post war history who have kept their promise on immigration.

That goes a lot further than the Democratic Party or 5 Star or whoever going "immigration is unquestionable good but there's some problems and we need to address them in non specific ways".

[Famous Mortimer]

Lega introduces no-confidence motion against Conte. It should be debated and voted on next week.

Before the year 2000, basically every party in Europe except for a few Greens and hard leftists took a line that would today be called fascist.

You haven't the faintest clue what you're talking about and if you have the slightest shed of self-awareness you really ought to shut up now.

no u

[Famous Mortimer]

I doubt whether this is a smart move in the long run (M5S may be needed in the future), but for now I will be eager to see Lega and FdI win a majority. Hopefully they can lead the way and inspire a similar movement throughout all of the continent.

More likely they will sufficiently toxify racist politics in Europe to an extent that no other country will want to touch the far right. In that way Italy, after being saved by Europe over and over again, will become Europe's sacrificial lamb. It would be poetic and beautiful if not so awful.

What exactly do you imagine a Lega-FI government would do that would make the far-right particularly unpopular? Far-right parties are already disliked by the establishment, I don't think forming a government all their own in Italy will particularly help their image, but I don't think it would really make it any worse either.

You can see what happens when far-right parties rule by themselves in Hungary. Liberal newspaper editors and NGOs talk badly about them, but Hungary has not collapsed, living standards have not declined, the government is popular. If Fidesz has done fine in government, why do you imagine Lega would be so much worse?

Do you think Italy's economy will crumble without constant injection of new African economic migrants? Putting aside the question of whether such migrants are good for the economy or not (they aren't), as people have already pointed out multiple times, they are a recent development, Italy did just fine without them for decades.

[Famous Mortimer]

I doubt whether this is a smart move in the long run (M5S may be needed in the future), but for now I will be eager to see Lega and FdI win a majority. Hopefully they can lead the way and inspire a similar movement throughout all of the continent.

More likely they will sufficiently toxify racist politics in Europe to an extent that no other country will want to touch the far right. In that way Italy, after being saved by Europe over and over again, will become Europe's sacrificial lamb. It would be poetic and beautiful if not so awful.

What exactly do you imagine a Lega-FI government would do that would make the far-right particularly unpopular? Far-right parties are already disliked by the establishment, I don't think forming a government all their own in Italy will particularly help their image, but I don't think it would really make it any worse either.

You can see what happens when far-right parties rule by themselves in Hungary. Liberal newspaper editors and NGOs talk badly about them, but Hungary has not collapsed, living standards have not declined, the government is popular. If Fidesz has done fine in government, why do you imagine Lega would be so much worse?

Do you think Italy's economy will crumble without constant injection of new African economic migrants? Putting aside the question of whether such migrants are good for the economy or not (they aren't), as people have already pointed out multiple times, they are a recent development, Italy did just fine without them for decades.

I know this is your shtick, but there are actually other issues that affect people's voting habits aside from immigration. The Italian economic situation is quite possibly the least optimistic in the whole of Europe, almost all parties are defined by corruption and many other italian leaders have been felled by the hubris that comes from sky high approvals. In such an environment there is no reason to believe any government can maintain high approval ratings for entire terms (indeed, has any government lasted a full term in the Second Republic?)

Other issues don't matter. The economy goes up and down constantly but if people vote for any party besides Lega, the demographics of their country are changed forever and they can never change them back.

[Famous Mortimer]

I doubt whether this is a smart move in the long run (M5S may be needed in the future), but for now I will be eager to see Lega and FdI win a majority. Hopefully they can lead the way and inspire a similar movement throughout all of the continent.

More likely they will sufficiently toxify racist politics in Europe to an extent that no other country will want to touch the far right. In that way Italy, after being saved by Europe over and over again, will become Europe's sacrificial lamb. It would be poetic and beautiful if not so awful.

What exactly do you imagine a Lega-FI government would do that would make the far-right particularly unpopular? Far-right parties are already disliked by the establishment, I don't think forming a government all their own in Italy will particularly help their image, but I don't think it would really make it any worse either.

You can see what happens when far-right parties rule by themselves in Hungary. Liberal newspaper editors and NGOs talk badly about them, but Hungary has not collapsed, living standards have not declined, the government is popular. If Fidesz has done fine in government, why do you imagine Lega would be so much worse?

Do you think Italy's economy will crumble without constant injection of new African economic migrants? Putting aside the question of whether such migrants are good for the economy or not (they aren't), as people have already pointed out multiple times, they are a recent development, Italy did just fine without them for decades.

I know this is your shtick, but there are actually other issues that affect people's voting habits aside from immigration. The Italian economic situation is quite possibly the least optimistic in the whole of Europe, almost all parties are defined by corruption and many other italian leaders have been felled by the hubris that comes from sky high approvals. In such an environment there is no reason to believe any government can maintain high approval ratings for entire terms (indeed, has any government lasted a full term in the Second Republic?)

Other issues don't matter. The economy goes up and down constantly but if people vote for any party besides Lega, the demographics of their country are changed forever and they can never change them back.

If the Italian economy weren't operating like an arthritic, septic old woman then maybe the demography of Italy would't be so close to the arthritic old woman who needs young immigrants to keep her alive.

In fact, the dysfunction of Italian politics and economics are why immigrants are necessary and also why they are met with such hostility. People view them as a burden, but Italians themselves are a much greater burden and obviously caused this mess in the first place. With a normal economy and politics immigrants would also be necessary, but they would be recognized as an integral piece of a flourishing economy.

If Italians believe that their culture is worth safeguarding, they should actually make sure that their culture is worth preserving. An economy that keeps Mario at home with Mama and the Playstation until he is a. 40 or b. moving to the UK is not the sign of a culture worth preserving. The whole world loves the nostalgia of Nona's Italy, but precisely because of the economy that Italy is dead, and the only migrants contributing to that reality aren't Africans but Italians themselves fleeing their own dumpster fire.

You say the current population of Italy is burdensome. So you are are admitting that large groups of people can be generally burdensome. If I said this, I would be called a Nazi. Regardless though, you are correct.

If you can acknowledge that the population of Italy is generally burdensome, why do you assume that a population imported from Africa will be automatically productive? It's a very strange assumption given that every African economy is worse than the Italian economy.

If the burdensome stupid lazy white people in Italy need migrants, they need productive migrants who will make their population more productive, they do not need burdensome migrants who will only make their problems worse.

[Famous Mortimer]

How generous of you (sarcastic) to concede that there are two possible reasons for opposition to immigration: irrational hatred of different skin colors or mistaken belief that more people means more people you are in resource competition with.

Why it can't be an ACCURATE belief that more people means more people you're in resource competition with, I will never know. It seems to me that that is the reason.

Additionally, the idea that economies are the result of the people who take part in them is not a far right idea, it is just obviously true.

It is nice of you though (not being sarcastic) to pretend that that isn't true for both whites and non-whites, unlike most other leftists who pretend it's true for economically struggling whites but not for anyone else.

[Famous Mortimer]

This thread is primarily about MATTEO SALVINI. Immigration gonna come up. If you don't discuss immigration, the thread will literally make no sense. It will be a bunch of people going "why is this guy so popular?" "I got no idea dur dur" "there might be reasons he is popular but no one is allowed to say" "there is no reason he's popular, it's just random! lol"

[Famous Mortimer]

Why it can't be an ACCURATE belief that more people means more people you're in resource competition with, I will never know. It seems to me that that is the reason.

Okay, yes. There are countries and economic systems in which immigration has this effect, and while I really don't think it's the main thing that's currently going on in Italy, I wouldn't be completely shocked if I were proven wrong on that. I've conceded as much in the past, just not in conversation with you, since I try to avoid talking to you.

I stand by the other observation that you remark on, especially (but not only) since you're reducing to the absurd in responding to it.

Anyway, I'm not going to pursue this conversation further because I have better things to be doing with my time and other posters have better things to be doing with this thread.

I saw a survey on attitudes towards immigration in Europe and it generally showed countries either with few immigrants (much of Eastern Europe) or only very recently (Greece and Italy) most negative, while countries that have had immigration for years like Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, Belgium, France, and UK much less so.  When Enoch Powell made his River of Blood speech in the late 60s, over 70% of Brits agreed with it, whereas today a speech like that would only have minority support so in a lot of ways Italy with respect to immigration is in a similar boat to what UK was in 60s and 70s.  You had some pretty bad race riots then too.  Generally speaking in most countries, new waves of those who look different tend to be negatively received unfortunately, but as time passes and they become part of the community attitudes shift.

Alternative explanation: you can be honest about the problems of immigration when there's only a few of them in your country and it's possible to deport them.

When there's millions of them and they make up a large chunk of the population in all of your major cities AND have shown a propensity to react violently to perceived slights, you lose the ability to be honest.

"I didn't want the man with the gun to come into my house but now that he's sitting on my couch pointing it at me, I love him! (Also, he gets a vote so gun man's approval could never dip below 50% regardless!)"