Obama's "church"

[MODU]

Attacking Obama for the church he attends which also is attended by Oprah is not going to work.

I don't think you need to attack him (or her) over it, but just ask why he would be a part of a congregation that is led by a minister which he doesn't agree with.  Call me crazy, but if you didn't agree with your Ministers message, wouldn't you leave and go somewhere else?

[JSojourner]

Attacking Obama for the church he attends which also is attended by Oprah is not going to work.

I don't think you need to attack him (or her) over it, but just ask why he would be a part of a congregation that is led by a minister which he doesn't agree with.  Call me crazy, but if you didn't agree with your Ministers message, wouldn't you leave and go somewhere else?

Usually, yes.  It depends on which messages you disagree with.  I disagreed with our former Priest on a number of issues -- the war, her support for Bush, abortion rights and gay marriage.  But I stayed in the church because I agreed with her on the issues of the divinity of Jesus Christ, salvation by grace alone, the resurrection and the real Presence in the Eucharist. 

Her position on political issues bothered me.  We argued sometimes.  But I learned so much from her theologically, devotionally and ecclesiastically.  I also learned how to agree to disagree.  Agreeably! LOL

But you make an excellent point, Mod, that shouldn't be ignored.  Obama needs to be crystal clear about what he agrees with his Pastor on and what he disagrees with him on.  And then he needs to explain how he has expressed that disagreement and to what extent.  I am fine with him saying, "I love Pastor Wright because we're brothers in Christ and we believe the same things about Jesus."  But I would like him to add that, "I have deep and serious concerns about his political leanings.  I have told him so in no uncertain terms and I want the American people to understand that I disavow what he has said about 9/11, (or whatever else Obama might object to)."

[MODU]

I would also like to see him add to that "And I expressed to the Minister that such comments are not Biblically related and do not belong in the sermons."

[agcatter]

Just ignoring his pastor and his sermons won't work.  This guy was his pastor for 20 years and Obama kept attending these sermons.  It was a choice he made.  He chose to continue going to that church.  More and more of these sermons are going to come out.  Drip, drip, drip.  It will not be going away regardless how many Obama people poo poo the issue.  I suspect that his campaign is way smarter than the Obama hacks on this site who think it is no big deal.  It is a big deal politically whether anyone likes it or not.

[Smash255]

Attacking Obama for the church he attends which also is attended by Oprah is not going to work.

I don't think you need to attack him (or her) over it, but just ask why he would be a part of a congregation that is led by a minister which he doesn't agree with.  Call me crazy, but if you didn't agree with your Ministers message, wouldn't you leave and go somewhere else?

How many people who attend church agree with their pastor/ priest on everything?  I would say very few in fact their are probably many who strongly disagree with their church and their church's leaders on certain issues.  I don't see how this is Pastor Wright's message as opposed  to his wrongheaded opinion on a few things.  the message seems to be to come together as a community, help the less fortunate, civil rights.  Those seem to be the actual messages of the church, not Wright's ridiclous opinion on a few subjects.  

[MODU]

Attacking Obama for the church he attends which also is attended by Oprah is not going to work.

I don't think you need to attack him (or her) over it, but just ask why he would be a part of a congregation that is led by a minister which he doesn't agree with.  Call me crazy, but if you didn't agree with your Ministers message, wouldn't you leave and go somewhere else?

How many people who attend church agree with their pastor/ priest on everything?  I would say very few in fact their are probably many who strongly disagree with their church and their church's leaders on certain issues.  I don't see how this is Pastor Wright's message as opposed  to his wrongheaded opinion on a few things.  the message seems to be to come together as a community, help the less fortunate, civil rights.  Those seem to be the actual messages of the church, not Wright's ridiclous opinion on a few subjects.  

His sermons should not be opinions though.  They should be topics taught out of the Bible.  Preaching that the US didn't blink when they bombed Japan is a) not Biblical and, b) completely wrong (as there are historical text that contradicts the Minister). 

As far as people not agreeing with the messages, their job is to discuss the issues with the Minister and the Elders to find resolution.  If Obama has not done so, then that means he agrees with content of the sermons.  If he says he has not discussed his concerns of the content with the Minister or Elders, he then would have to explain why he remains in a church that preaches against the Bible on highly-controversial issues.  It would be a fair request.

[Smash255]

Attacking Obama for the church he attends which also is attended by Oprah is not going to work.

I don't think you need to attack him (or her) over it, but just ask why he would be a part of a congregation that is led by a minister which he doesn't agree with.  Call me crazy, but if you didn't agree with your Ministers message, wouldn't you leave and go somewhere else?

How many people who attend church agree with their pastor/ priest on everything?  I would say very few in fact their are probably many who strongly disagree with their church and their church's leaders on certain issues.  I don't see how this is Pastor Wright's message as opposed  to his wrongheaded opinion on a few things.  the message seems to be to come together as a community, help the less fortunate, civil rights.  Those seem to be the actual messages of the church, not Wright's ridiclous opinion on a few subjects.  

His sermons should not be opinions though.  They should be topics taught out of the Bible.  Preaching that the US didn't blink when they bombed Japan is a) not Biblical and, b) completely wrong (as there are historical text that contradicts the Minister). 

As far as people not agreeing with the messages, their job is to discuss the issues with the Minister and the Elders to find resolution.  If Obama has not done so, then that means he agrees with content of the sermons.  If he says he has not discussed his concerns of the content with the Minister or Elders, he then would have to explain why he remains in a church that preaches against the Bible on highly-controversial issues.  It would be a fair request.

Their is no indication that the controversial comments made were in any way shape or form anything other than a very minute portion of comments he has mde in his sermons.  Not to mention virtually every preacher out there has made comments in their sermons that don't coincide with the bible.  The comments were indeed awful and Obama has condemned them, however he shouldn't be questioned on why he still attends the church when he strongly disagrees with some of the  comments his pastor mas made when they ar a very small portion of the comments he has made.  If this was a major theme of the church, thats one thing, but it wasn't.

[Brittain33]

snip

I think you've made your views pretty clear on this thread.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Limbaugh is ranting about this today.......his argument has no facts...just opinion.  But that's Rush.

[MODU]

Their is no indication that the controversial comments made were in any way shape or form anything other than a very minute portion of comments he has mde in his sermons.  Not to mention virtually every preacher out there has made comments in their sermons that don't coincide with the bible.  The comments were indeed awful and Obama has condemned them, however he shouldn't be questioned on why he still attends the church when he strongly disagrees with some of the  comments his pastor mas made when they ar a very small portion of the comments he has made.  If this was a major theme of the church, thats one thing, but it wasn't.

There is a difference between condemning the comments and confronting the Minister and the Elders about the comments.  It shows a level of involvement with the church and concern for the fellow members as well as the integrity of the message.  Additionally, a single comment or two, one could let pass.  But he has a series of controversial comments now (which we now have a thread growing on the various quotes).  More than two, and the Elders should have either pulled the Minister from the pulpit and/or the congregation should have begun to find new church homes ... unless these are items which they believe in (which goes back to my original comment).

[agcatter]

What facts do you need?  The sermons are on tape.  They speak for themselves.  Are their some "facts" that we are missing that are supposed to render this guy's hate mongeing from the pulpit somehow acceptable?

The guy has a perfect right to spew whatever he wants to his flock.  I couldn't care less.  I do care as to why my potential president felt drawn to this man - for 20 years.  

So will a lot of people and I can assure you they aren't all Republicans.

[Smash255]

Their is no indication that the controversial comments made were in any way shape or form anything other than a very minute portion of comments he has mde in his sermons.  Not to mention virtually every preacher out there has made comments in their sermons that don't coincide with the bible.  The comments were indeed awful and Obama has condemned them, however he shouldn't be questioned on why he still attends the church when he strongly disagrees with some of the  comments his pastor mas made when they ar a very small portion of the comments he has made.  If this was a major theme of the church, thats one thing, but it wasn't.

There is a difference between condemning the comments and confronting the Minister and the Elders about the comments.  It shows a level of involvement with the church and concern for the fellow members as well as the integrity of the message.  Additionally, a single comment or two, one could let pass.  But he has a series of controversial comments now (which we now have a thread growing on the various quotes).  More than two, and the Elders should have either pulled the Minister from the pulpit and/or the congregation should have begun to find new church homes ... unless these are items which they believe in (which goes back to my original comment).

A handful of comments over many years.  Again I believe these comments are wrong and Obama should speak out against them which he has done.  However there is nothing to indicate these comments made up anything more than a very remote portion of his services

[Smash255]

What facts do you need?  The sermons are on tape.  They speak for themselves.  Are their some "facts" that we are missing that are supposed to render this guy's hate mongeing from the pulpit somehow acceptable?

The guy has a perfect right to spew whatever he wants to his flock.  I couldn't care less.  I do care as to why my potential president felt drawn to this man - for 20 years.  

So will a lot of people and I can assure you they aren't all Republicans.

Perhaps because these comments made up a very small portion of what Wright stated in his sermons and was in no way shape or form part of his actual message....

[Person Man]

Like I said, these attacks are made by people who are willing to gain the world and are willing to sacrifice America in the process.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

What facts do you need?  The sermons are on tape.  They speak for themselves.  Are their some "facts" that we are missing that are supposed to render this guy's hate mongeing from the pulpit somehow acceptable?

The guy has a perfect right to spew whatever he wants to his flock.  I couldn't care less.  I do care as to why my potential president felt drawn to this man - for 20 years.  

So will a lot of people and I can assure you they aren't all Republicans.

There are no facts suggesting Obama subcribes to the "hate mongering" views.   

If I go to the Catholic Church does that mean I'm auotmatically pro-life and don't think women can be priests and don't think contraceptives should be used?

Puhleeze....show me that the big O subscribes to this guy's crap......those would be facts.

[Jake]

He doesn't need to actually believe this guy, but the very fact that he calls this guy an inspiration to him and listened to him for years adds another mark to the list of bad judgement calls he's made (Pakistan, smoking, his wife...).

[MODU]

A handful of comments over many years.  Again I believe these comments are wrong and Obama should speak out against them which he has done.  However there is nothing to indicate these comments made up anything more than a very remote portion of his services

You miss the point.  They shouldn't be in the sermon at all, especially hateful comments.  The clip of his "God dam America" rant went on for over 2 minutes, and probably continued longer than that in full.  That isn't a "very remote portion" of the sermon.  And with people seen standing, clapping, and hopping about, it's clear that the congregation agrees with and/or supports it and was probably expected.  Similiar reactions are visible in the videos of the Minister "going at it" when talking about Bill Clinton riding Monica Lewinski.  These videos alone will hurt some of his in-roads with the South where he was expected to do well.

Puhleeze....show me that the big O subscribes to this guy's crap......those would be facts.

The only "fact" that is needed is that he's been a member at this church for 12 years, and the Minister has been there the entire time.  So, as I was mentioning to Smash, unless Obama can show that he's confronted the Minister and the Elders about the content of the sermons and/or searched for an alternate Church home, his membership is a sign that he "subscribes to this guy's crap."

[Person Man]

Gee...give it a rest. This is stupid and hurting the country.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

We don't know what Obama believes. That's what's sos scary about him as a candidate. I can't prove he does believe all that stuff just like you can't prove he doesn't. I do know what little I've seen of Obama tells me that he doesn't subscribe to the patriotic things most other leaders do .. hand over heart during pledge, flag lapel pin, his wife hating america etc.. So from what I've seen, it's possible he may subscribe to all this nonsense. I don't think he does, but you can't sit there and tell me you know he doesn't. There's more proof that Obama and his wife subscribe to this hate mongering than not.

This isn't just an isolated incident. He's been saying radical things like this for years. A man who wants to be president goes and listens to this crap on a weekly basis? He calls him his spiritual advisor? Get a grip, people! No one thinks this is a big deal?

[agcatter]

Plenty of people think it is a big deal.  It will hurt him with working class white Democrats (big part of the Democratic Party coalition and the part of the voting electorate he needs in November) and independents.

[MODU]

Gee...give it a rest. This is stupid and hurting the country.

Ok, let's restructure the discussion here to remove any ties to the current candidates as a logical exercise.

1) What would your opinion be if some generic candidate (republican or democrat) was a member of the Westboro Baptist Church but said he didn't agree with some of the comments made by Fred Phelps?

2) What would your opinion be if some generic candidate (republican or democrat) was a member of the KKK but said he didn't agree in negative treatment of non-whites?

3) What would your opinion be if some generic candidate (republican or democrat) was a member of PETA but didn't believe that people should become vegetarians?

[agcatter]

"this is stupid and is hurting the country"

yep.  Just drop it.  Move on.  Nothing to see here.

Some of you wish.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

What facts do you need?  The sermons are on tape.  They speak for themselves.  Are their some "facts" that we are missing that are supposed to render this guy's hate mongeing from the pulpit somehow acceptable?

The guy has a perfect right to spew whatever he wants to his flock.  I couldn't care less.  I do care as to why my potential president felt drawn to this man - for 20 years. 

So will a lot of people and I can assure you they aren't all Republicans.

There are no facts suggesting Obama subcribes to the "hate mongering" views.   

If I go to the Catholic Church does that mean I'm auotmatically pro-life and don't think women can be priests and don't think contraceptives should be used?

Puhleeze....show me that the big O subscribes to this guy's crap......those would be facts.

Yeah, that's exactly what I've been saying.

[Smash255]

Gee...give it a rest. This is stupid and hurting the country.

Ok, let's restructure the discussion here to remove any ties to the current candidates as a logical exercise.

1) What would your opinion be if some generic candidate (republican or democrat) was a member of the Westboro Baptist Church but said he didn't agree with some of the comments made by Fred Phelps?

2) What would your opinion be if some generic candidate (republican or democrat) was a member of the KKK but said he didn't agree in negative treatment of non-whites?

3) What would your opinion be if some generic candidate (republican or democrat) was a member of PETA but didn't believe that people should become vegetarians?

The comparison is a bit silly.  These comments were a very small portion of what Pastor Wright has said, and has nothing to do with the overall message of the church.  The Westboro Baptst Church is all about hate, it isn't a small portion of what the leader believes in, its a very large portion of what he believes in, what he preachees and the message.
same thing with the KKK & PETA anaolgies. 

[MODU]

The comparison is a bit silly.  These comments were a very small portion of what Pastor Wright has said, and has nothing to do with the overall message of the church.  The Westboro Baptst Church is all about hate, it isn't a small portion of what the leader believes in, its a very large portion of what he believes in, what he preachees and the message.
same thing with the KKK & PETA anaolgies. 

Yet while it might be a small portion, this is all the people will see, which is why I chose the examples that I did, and that is why I'm trying to get a point across.  It's one thing to say you disagree with what the Minister says during his sermon, but the fact that he remains a member for 12 years where these comments continue to arise creates doubts in the minds of those who pay attention that Obama is being sincere.  If he had such a problem with the comments in the sermons that he feels he needs to distance himself with the Minister, why didn't he switch congregations years ago?  For many evangelicals and/or Southern blacks who could consider voting for him, this will be a distinct issue that he needs to explain in order to regain their trust.  Otherwise, he can be consider as the same old kind of politician who will say anything to get elected . . . the same kind of politics that Obama is campaigning against.