Soul

[YRABNNRM]

For those of you that believe in the concept of a soul or a spirit, what exactly do you consider it to be? Is it sensory, is it the emotional fiber of a person? What is it? What do you believe would happen to someone if they no longer had a soul (sold it to the "Devil" hypothetically)?

I've been thinking about this recently because I'm planning to write a short story relating to the subject. Any help would be great.

[Joe Republic]

My dæmon has taken the form of a snow leopard, if that's any help.

[Dr. Cynic]

(sold it to the "Devil" hypothetically)?

I've been thinking about this recently because I'm planning to write a short story relating to the subject. Any help would be great.

Uh, Andrew, as much as I admire a fellow writer, they've already made several short stories on the subject. The most famous being "The Devil and Daniel Webster"

[YRABNNRM]

Uh, Andrew, as much as I admire a fellow writer, they've already made several short stories on the subject. The most famous being "The Devil and Daniel Webster"

Oh yes, I'm quite aware. I know it's not the most original idea (My favorite similar tale would be that of Faust) but I have put my own spin on the concept. It's quite a broad concept actually, people could "sell their soul" for numerous reasons.

I would just like to know what people here believe the soul actually is and what the repercussions could be to one who sells theirs.

[Dr. Cynic]

Well Andrew, I've got an idea, feel free to use it if you like... You could take like say four different characters, and have them all sell their souls for different reasons, be it averice, lust, whatever... Then you could follow each character's moral struggle with what they had done, and possibly attempt to get out of it.

[YRABNNRM]

Oh, I've got my concept already. I won't get into it now.

Then you could follow each character's moral struggle with what they had done, and possibly attempt to get out of it.

Well that's where we get back to my original point of debate; what is a soul and what would happen when you would sell it in order to have a struggle?

[Dr. Cynic]

Well, that depends on how you look at it Andrew. I'm an agnostic, so it's kind of difficult territory for me. I always thought that if there was a soul, it would be a continuation of the self... Like the person, only immortal... That was just my take on it when I was a christian.

[angus]

I've been thinking about this recently because I'm planning to write a short story relating to the subject. Any help would be great.

good for you.  I think it's the sum of a person's deeds, if free will exists, and fate, if not.  Take your pick.  (That bit I borrowed from the western mystics)  Assuming you're an individualist, you have some will, and you can choose your path, and the soul is a path-dependent function.  Just like in calculus.  Depending on how you differentiate, you get a different result.  So it's not like entropy (what the hindu call Shiva), or enthalpy (what the Judeochristoislamists call "the devil"), or Internal Energy (what the Eastern Mystics call Karma).  It's more like work or heat, in that sense, since the path you take very much defines the soul.  I has no particles with non-zero rest mass, and therefore doesn't need to abide by the laws of contemporary physics.  It's an ethereal entity.  (that bit I borrowed from the Jews)  It lives without form or particle, and enters and exits bodies upon the birth and death, respectively, of that body.  It is forever.  Really forever.  Not like diamonds (that's just an advertising gimmick.)  Creatures with souls are not allowed by the gods to give souls to their creations.  That's an important point.  So it's not something that androids, like Lieutennant commander Data, can have.  It's something animals (even extraterrestrials, like Roger on American Dad) can have.  Maybe also plants have them.  And lower life forms too maybe.  But artificial life forms do not have them.  I also think that the gods themselves have no souls, but are somewhat envious of those who do.  (That bit I borrowed from the buddhists). 

And that's the sum of my pantheistic understanding of souls:  They are forever.  Gods are not allowed to have them.  They do not have form.  They determine your ethereal trajectory.

I'll check to see what Elvis had to say about them. 

[YRABNNRM]

And I don't quite understand what you mean by 'emotional fiber'. 

The ability to feel emotions, pretty much.

[angus]

Andrew, your ability to sense emotions has been fairly well studied at this point, and apparently needs no explanation beyond what is available via physics.

I agree that it isn't something that may be lost, or caught for that matter.  The way you can catch a cold.  You are merely a collection of particles.  But the soul is forever.  Or maybe "you" are what your soul is.  Now we're getting at the heart of the question.  Are you a collection of particles, or is there a "you" independent of the physics of your being?

I tend to think in terms of physics, and that metaphysics and spirituality is heuristic, or at best a way to make yourself feel better when close relatives die.  I have yet to see a post, here or anywhere else, that convinces me otherwise.   But it's still an intriguing question I'll admit.  Hopefully religion will continue to evolve beyond, and above, physics, and will therefore continue to be an interesting discipline.

In any case, I wish you the best of luck with your story. 

[MaC]

I would post that opebo quote, but I'd definitely be committing overkill by doing so.

[YRABNNRM]

In any case, I wish you the best of luck with your story. 

Thank you, sir, and thank you for your insightful posts.

[John Dibble]

Well, as an agnostic I can't say for sure whether we have something like a soul or not. I'd like to think so, but when pondering that question I can't help but wonder if it has something to do with what makes life different from the other chemical reactions. If you seriously consider it, you find that animals, plants, humans, and even single celled organisms are simply sacs of proteins and other chemicals reacting with eachother. Now, I'm not saying that we're the same as amoebas. They might have 'soul version 1.0', or maybe 'soul beta version', and we're 'soul version 5.3: now with the ability to love and hate other chemicals'. Or maybe not - maybe we're just the same as them. Who the f**k knows. Not me, that's for sure. But I digress, the essential difference between us and that baking soda and vinegar volcano you stared in awe at in first grade us living chemical reactions attempt to sustain ourselves rather than taking our course and having the leftover new chemicals react with whatever happens by. What purpose does that serve to chemicals? Why would chemicals want to react with eachother? Does the volcano desperately want us to add more vinegar and baking soda, but merely lacks the means to tell us so? Maybe if we could know this, we might have better insight into the existence and nature of souls. Or maybe we'd just go insane. Wait, am I turning into angus?

[J. J.]

A man sells his soul and nothing happens until he dies.  He goes to hell, which is surprisingly like the worst aspects of real life.  He asked the Devil why?  The Devil says, "Free will."  The man realizes he was damned by his own life choices. 

[YRABNNRM]

A man sells his soul and nothing happens until he dies.  He goes to hell, which is surprisingly like the worst aspects of real life.  He asked the Devil why?  The Devil says, "Free will."  The man realizes he was damned by his own life choices. 

That's quite a twist!

Is that from something or do you mind if I....remember that?

[J. J.]

A man sells his soul and nothing happens until he dies.  He goes to hell, which is surprisingly like the worst aspects of real life.  He asked the Devil why?  The Devil says, "Free will."  The man realizes he was damned by his own life choices. 

That's quite a twist!

Is that from something or do you mind if I....remember that?

No, I came up with that, on the spur of the moment, based on my Calvinist upbringing.   You can "borrow" it, but I might do a reworking of it.

I'd make Hell a lot like the real word, but darker.  It would always be overcast, slightly cold, dusty; nothing would glitter.  People, including the Devil, wouldn't smile.  No joy, just sarcasm.  A person might achieve his full dreams, but not be able to really enjoy it. People/demons would be callus.

 

[John Dibble]

I'd make Hell a lot like the real word, but darker.  It would always be overcast, slightly cold, dusty; nothing would glitter.  People, including the Devil, wouldn't smile.  No joy, just sarcasm.  A person might achieve his full dreams, but not be able to really enjoy it. People/demons would be callus.

So any of those goth teens who go to hell would like it there?

[afleitch]

My dæmon has taken the form of a snow leopard, if that's any help.

Philip Pullman get to you too I've learned more about theological concepts of the self and the soul from those books than I have from any other source- what he proposes isn't new of course, it's just a stylised version of centuries of thought.

For me the soul is not tangable, you can't see it and you can't touch it. Neither is it indivisable; when you are creative, when you work, when you love someone, part of your 'soul' goes into that (hense the old phrase 'to put your heart and soul into') but you never 'loose' it as to do so would see you loose what it is to be human. You can't buy it and you can't sell it and everybody has one. It can be weighed down with troubles, thoughts and regrets, which can be lifted through a confession (not just in the Catholic sense nor has it anything to do with 'sin') of what is weighing you down, the realisation that you have to let go of certain things. It's a strange concept all round

[J. J.]

I'd make Hell a lot like the real word, but darker.  It would always be overcast, slightly cold, dusty; nothing would glitter.  People, including the Devil, wouldn't smile.  No joy, just sarcasm.  A person might achieve his full dreams, but not be able to really enjoy it. People/demons would be callus.

So any of those goth teens who go to hell would like it there?

Goths enjoy themselves.

[minionofmidas]

It is a function of the brain, one that has never been located exactly and hopefully never will.

[David S]

I found these two definitions of soul in the online dictionary.

1. the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in humans, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body; the spiritual part of humans as distinct from the physical part. 
...
4. the emotional part of human nature; the seat of the feelings or sentiments. 

I think we could all agree that human beings have a soul in the sense of definition 4. The question would be whether we believe that the soul can exist without the body as suggested in definition 1.
I happen to believe that it can.

[J. J.]

It is a function of the brain, one that has never been located exactly and hopefully never will.

It would be interesting if he hears Aretha Franklin before, but after, he sells his soul, he doesn't.