Palestine college student protest megathread

[Dr. MB]

This is Fuzzy "condemn the Grand Mufti" stuff. Most of the posters who are pro-Palestinian have condemned Hamas. We condemn Hamas. We shouldn't need to say it 500 times. After a certain point, it's a strawman if people still pretend you haven't condemned Hamas.

great you condemn Hamas, and you want to dictate how the immediate victims of the condemned Hamas react to Hamas, but where are the solutions to Hamas?  Like I've been saying for years, a third party needs to go in there and do what needs to be done, but they won't because they know they will face the exact same problems the IDF faces and they don't want to be called the things people call the IDF.

why would you dictate how the immediate victims of the IDF react to the IDF?

[Landslide Lyndon]

I can't stress enough just how much >90% of employed people despise protests like this. The left has completely failed to appeal to working people and there seems to be no interest in fixing that.

These people aren't the left. These are extremist loons who have more in common with Alex Jones and David Duke than with any mainstream Democrat.

you're in Greece what do you know about American student organizing

Because we have plenty of the same kind of morons here.

[Dr. MB]

I can't stress enough just how much >90% of employed people despise protests like this. The left has completely failed to appeal to working people and there seems to be no interest in fixing that.

These people aren't the left. These are extremist loons who have more in common with Alex Jones and David Duke than with any mainstream Democrat.

you're in Greece what do you know about American student organizing

Because we have plenty of the same kind of morons here.

And I can tell you from a personal standpoint that while I can't speak for everyone, many people involved are very committed to a socialist society and socialist politics.

[dead0man]

Maybe Israel - or Israel and a multinational anti-terrorism group including USA - should increase the boots on the ground and find a way to fight Hamas that doesn't conflict with the Geneva Convention. "Not committing war crimes" (or as you would characterize it, "not killing oodles of civilians") should be first priority and "arresting or killing Hamas" should be second priority. It's been reported that up to 90% or even higher than that of all casualties have been civilians. That isn't an acceptable or legal way to conduct a war.

why does it have to involve the US and Israel?  Why not one of the hundred plus countries in the UN that love to complain about how the US and Israel deal with the situation?  If they care so damn much, why don't they ever do anything except bitch?  Oh, that's right, they can't even manage their own affairs.

[dead0man]

This is Fuzzy "condemn the Grand Mufti" stuff. Most of the posters who are pro-Palestinian have condemned Hamas. We condemn Hamas. We shouldn't need to say it 500 times. After a certain point, it's a strawman if people still pretend you haven't condemned Hamas.

great you condemn Hamas, and you want to dictate how the immediate victims of the condemned Hamas react to Hamas, but where are the solutions to Hamas?  Like I've been saying for years, a third party needs to go in there and do what needs to be done, but they won't because they know they will face the exact same problems the IDF faces and they don't want to be called the things people call the IDF.

why would you dictate how the immediate victims of the IDF react to the IDF?

I don't understand the question.

[VBM]

I can't stress enough just how much >90% of employed people despise protests like this. The left has completely failed to appeal to working people and there seems to be no interest in fixing that.

gainfully employed people are the enemy, we support genocide by working for "the man" or something

It’s funny because when you say that it is a moral failing of the Palestinian people to let Hamas remain as their governing body, progressives become extremely hostile and insist that you’re evil for saying that citizens are responsible to some extent for the actions of their government.

It’s a moral failing for us to support a government which is funding Israel, but not a moral failing of Palestinians to support a government which is actively trying to genocide the Jewish people

“Silence is violence, except if you’re poor and brown skinned”

[GeneralMacArthur]

I can't stress enough just how much >90% of employed people despise protests like this. The left has completely failed to appeal to working people and there seems to be no interest in fixing that.

gainfully employed people are the enemy, we support genocide by working for "the man" or something

It’s funny because when you say that it is a moral failing of the Palestinian people to let Hamas remain as their governing body, progressives become extremely hostile and insist that you’re evil for saying that citizens are responsible to some extent for the actions of their government.

It’s a moral failing for us to support a government which is funding Israel, but not a moral failing of Palestinians to support a government which is actively trying to genocide the Jewish people

“Silence is violence, except if you’re poor and brown skinned”

I don't think the two are equivalent.  Palestinians have not had the opportunity to vote Hamas out of power.

[VBM]

I can't stress enough just how much >90% of employed people despise protests like this. The left has completely failed to appeal to working people and there seems to be no interest in fixing that.

gainfully employed people are the enemy, we support genocide by working for "the man" or something

It’s funny because when you say that it is a moral failing of the Palestinian people to let Hamas remain as their governing body, progressives become extremely hostile and insist that you’re evil for saying that citizens are responsible to some extent for the actions of their government.

It’s a moral failing for us to support a government which is funding Israel, but not a moral failing of Palestinians to support a government which is actively trying to genocide the Jewish people

“Silence is violence, except if you’re poor and brown skinned”

I don't think the two are equivalent.  Palestinians have not had the opportunity to vote Hamas out of power.

I don’t think that’s a valid excuse when your authoritarian regime is blatantly genocidal. If Trump suspended American democracy and blatantly tried to wipe Muslims off the face of the Earth, it would be the responsibility of every American citizen to, at the very least, undermine the actions of our government

[T'Chenka]

I don't think the two are equivalent.  Palestinians have not had the opportunity to vote Hamas out of power.

I don’t think that’s a valid excuse when your authoritarian regime is blatantly genocidal. If Trump suspended American democracy and blatantly tried to wipe Muslims off the face of the Earth, it would be the responsibility of every American citizen to, at the very least, undermine the actions of our government

Are 11 year olds and their moms supposed to form anti-Hamas militias and risk being executed? Look at the demographics.

[GeneralMacArthur]

I can't stress enough just how much >90% of employed people despise protests like this. The left has completely failed to appeal to working people and there seems to be no interest in fixing that.

gainfully employed people are the enemy, we support genocide by working for "the man" or something

It’s funny because when you say that it is a moral failing of the Palestinian people to let Hamas remain as their governing body, progressives become extremely hostile and insist that you’re evil for saying that citizens are responsible to some extent for the actions of their government.

It’s a moral failing for us to support a government which is funding Israel, but not a moral failing of Palestinians to support a government which is actively trying to genocide the Jewish people

“Silence is violence, except if you’re poor and brown skinned”

I don't think the two are equivalent.  Palestinians have not had the opportunity to vote Hamas out of power.

I don’t think that’s a valid excuse when your authoritarian regime is blatantly genocidal. If Trump suspended American democracy and blatantly tried to wipe Muslims off the face of the Earth, it would be the responsibility of every American citizen to, at the very least, undermine the actions of our government

Well yes I agree but it's a false equivalence to compare voting out the president to violent revolution to overthrow Hamas.

It really says something that nobody in Gaza is willing to cooperate with Israel for their own liberation though.  After the United States overthrew Saddam, there were plenty of Iraqis enthusiastic about cooperating with the United States to rebuild the country and be a part of its future.

[Born to Slay. Forced to Work.]

I can't stress enough just how much >90% of employed people despise protests like this. The left has completely failed to appeal to working people and there seems to be no interest in fixing that.

gainfully employed people are the enemy, we support genocide by working for "the man" or something

It’s funny because when you say that it is a moral failing of the Palestinian people to let Hamas remain as their governing body, progressives become extremely hostile and insist that you’re evil for saying that citizens are responsible to some extent for the actions of their government.

It’s a moral failing for us to support a government which is funding Israel, but not a moral failing of Palestinians to support a government which is actively trying to genocide the Jewish people

“Silence is violence, except if you’re poor and brown skinned”

I don't think the two are equivalent.  Palestinians have not had the opportunity to vote Hamas out of power.

I don’t think that’s a valid excuse when your authoritarian regime is blatantly genocidal. If Trump suspended American democracy and blatantly tried to wipe Muslims off the face of the Earth, it would be the responsibility of every American citizen to, at the very least, undermine the actions of our government

I don’t disagree with you but for one, most Gazans are children and the rest live in abject poverty. They do not have the resources for resistance that you saw even in late 1900s South America.

Don’t forget that Netanyahu helped prop up Hamas for years and years hoping to divide Gaza from the West Bank and prevent the creation of Palestine so you’re not going up against Hamas, but a Hamas being supported by Israel

[Born to Slay. Forced to Work.]

I can't stress enough just how much >90% of employed people despise protests like this. The left has completely failed to appeal to working people and there seems to be no interest in fixing that.

gainfully employed people are the enemy, we support genocide by working for "the man" or something

It’s funny because when you say that it is a moral failing of the Palestinian people to let Hamas remain as their governing body, progressives become extremely hostile and insist that you’re evil for saying that citizens are responsible to some extent for the actions of their government.

It’s a moral failing for us to support a government which is funding Israel, but not a moral failing of Palestinians to support a government which is actively trying to genocide the Jewish people

“Silence is violence, except if you’re poor and brown skinned”

I don't think the two are equivalent.  Palestinians have not had the opportunity to vote Hamas out of power.

I don’t think that’s a valid excuse when your authoritarian regime is blatantly genocidal. If Trump suspended American democracy and blatantly tried to wipe Muslims off the face of the Earth, it would be the responsibility of every American citizen to, at the very least, undermine the actions of our government

Well yes I agree but it's a false equivalence to compare voting out the president to violent revolution to overthrow Hamas.

It really says something that nobody in Gaza is willing to cooperate with Israel for their own liberation though.  After the United States overthrew Saddam, there were plenty of Iraqis enthusiastic about cooperating with the United States to rebuild the country and be a part of its future.

The Israeli government under Netanyahu supported Hamas to prevent their liberation as it would mean a more united Palestine.

[VBM]

I don't think the two are equivalent.  Palestinians have not had the opportunity to vote Hamas out of power.

I don’t think that’s a valid excuse when your authoritarian regime is blatantly genocidal. If Trump suspended American democracy and blatantly tried to wipe Muslims off the face of the Earth, it would be the responsibility of every American citizen to, at the very least, undermine the actions of our government

Are 11 year olds and their moms supposed to form anti-Hamas militias and risk being executed? Look at the demographics.

Some of the able-bodied men should. Besides, I’m not saying that every Gazan needs to be a hero who’s putting their life on the line to overthrow Hamas. Only a few would need to do that, especially when any anti-Hamas organization would have the backing of Israel and most the the West. Your average Palestinian could just donate a small portion of their income to a resistance, provide said resistance with some food/resources, etc.

At the end of the day, at least some people have to take the initiative to remove an authoritarian regime from power. Hamas isn’t just gonna suddenly vanish into thin air.

[Beet]

https://twitter.com/llassabe/status/1786282504129008008

[VBM]

I can't stress enough just how much >90% of employed people despise protests like this. The left has completely failed to appeal to working people and there seems to be no interest in fixing that.

gainfully employed people are the enemy, we support genocide by working for "the man" or something

It’s funny because when you say that it is a moral failing of the Palestinian people to let Hamas remain as their governing body, progressives become extremely hostile and insist that you’re evil for saying that citizens are responsible to some extent for the actions of their government.

It’s a moral failing for us to support a government which is funding Israel, but not a moral failing of Palestinians to support a government which is actively trying to genocide the Jewish people

“Silence is violence, except if you’re poor and brown skinned”

I don't think the two are equivalent.  Palestinians have not had the opportunity to vote Hamas out of power.

I don’t think that’s a valid excuse when your authoritarian regime is blatantly genocidal. If Trump suspended American democracy and blatantly tried to wipe Muslims off the face of the Earth, it would be the responsibility of every American citizen to, at the very least, undermine the actions of our government

I don’t disagree with you but for one, most Gazans are children and the rest live in abject poverty. They do not have the resources for resistance that you saw even in late 1900s South America.

Don’t forget that Netanyahu helped prop up Hamas for years and years hoping to divide Gaza from the West Bank and prevent a the creation of Palestine so you’re not going up against Hamas, but a Hamas being supported by Israel

I agree with you that Netanyahu should be removed from power, so I won’t argue with you there. But like I said in my reply to T’Chenka, somebody’s gotta take the initiative to remove an authoritarian regime from power. If the civilian populace won’t make any effort to do it, then a foreign government would have to. If said foreign government is facing an existential threat from your authoritarian government (like how Hamas poses an existential threat to Israel), then I’m willing to grant them some leniency in how they go about removing your authoritarian government from power. Obviously, committing an actual genocide against the Gazans would not be a justified response to their inaction against Hamas, and I have condemned cases where the IDF blatantly murdered innocents, like those 7 aid workers. There certainly is a discussion to be had about how much leniency Israel should be granted. How much collateral damage is too much? The answer obviously isn’t that the total destruction of Gaza would be acceptable, but it’s also ridiculous how many leftists act like even just a single civilian casualty would render Israel’s campaign against Hamas immoral and unjustified (there’s been leftists, even on this very forum, accusing Israel of genocide, even when the bodies were still being counted on 10/7)

Anyways, the main point of my original post is that it’s a little hypocritical for pro-Palestine protesters to justify blocking roads and being a nuisance to American citizens because “Americans deserve it for supporting a government that’s funding genocide” when Palestinians themselves are supporting (at the very least through their taxes and goods/services they provide, even if they personally don’t condone Hamas’s actions) a government that is straight up trying to commit a genocide.

[Morning in Atlas]

I really think you should stop engaging with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as much as possible for the time being. We saw what you posted before you were infracted, and it’s clear that this is leading you down a very dark path. To put it bluntly, you are being - or have already been - radicalized into racism.

All of this to own the Bernie Bros. Man really hates the left so much he disparaged an entire ethnic group.

[jojoju1998]

For those not in the Discord, I visited the UW encampment yesterday and it was basically what I expected based on my previous description that "this is just like the early days of CHAZ."

When I was at college we had an event every September for the freshmen where you would get six of your friends together and set up tents on the main student green, and you'd sleep over in the tents.  Everyone would decorate their tents so it kind of had this Halloween feel, and different student organizations and Greek houses would have their new freshman recruits turn their tents into an organization tent so it also served as kind of an orientation event.  You'd go to different tents to meet people and see what they were about.  And then there was also this kind of sexual aspect to it because the tents were coed so you were putting together a group of six friends you'd known for maybe a couple weeks, and maybe you wanted to know the girls better and hoped that by sleeping together in a small tent it would lead to some cuddling or some emotional intimacy or at least something to build on for the future.  It was also very socially stressful because "pick your top 6 friends" meant you would find out who considered you a top friend and who was going to exclude you.  Interesting phenomenon in general.

Anyway, that was what this reminded me of.  Every tent had its own "thing" going on and it was all playacting like they were either a warzone, or a music festival, or a mini-school.  So one tent was making s'mores, one tent was doing finger painting, one tent was offering to teach you about the time in 1475 the Jews kidnapped a toddler for ritual sacrifice and cannibalism.  There was some Arabic music being played over a speaker that I'm sure 95% of the students couldn't understand.  There were also tents for different organizations -- including one hilarious one for the evangelical christians on campus that said "Ask me why you will burn in hell" and was actually attracting the most attention as students wanted to intellectually defeat the guy trying to tell them why Jesus Christ was the truth.

It's very similar vibes to the early days of CHAZ, which people thought was just going to be a block party.  You had various pop-up canopies for different activities and organizations that you could browse, and there was food and drink and live music and most people were just treating it as a way to have fun.  But of course there were also lots of "ACAB" and "Defund the Police" and "Piggies go Home" and "Murderers!" and those kinds of signs and sidewalk chalk and posters and paintings and things like that, and plenty of people who wanted to tell you all about their ideology.  I really can't overstate just how much "From the river to the sea" and "Intifada!" are the two most popular slogans after the generic "Free Palestine" -- I thought "end the genocide" would be more popular but nope there was "intifada" plastered on everything in sight.

idk, kids in their 20s like doing this kind of thing, street festivals are one of the few ways left to have a proper third-space where people will actually want to talk to each other and socialize.  The problem is twofold.

First, they're doing it in service of a bad cause -- the Palestinian cause is bad, the intifada and 10/7 were blood-soaked terror events that are bad to celebrate or defend, and in particular the genocidal and racist anti-Zionist slogans like "from the river to the sea" are bad, and by and large they only support this because they are woefully misinformed, mostly by social media.  The sorts of signs and artwork that I saw of progressive paradise Palestine was reflective of this, you know, Gaza with the LGBTQIAP++ flag and things like that.

The second is that these sorts of things are often going to end up hijacked by the radicals and opportunists who will veer it off in a direction of violence and extremism and lawlessness.  That was what happened with CHAZ, that happened at Columbia and UCLA, I'm hoping it won't happen at UW because it will make my commute annoying to have streets shut down.

As someone who is not exactly a fan of the protests myself, you have gone too far.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

For those not in the Discord, I visited the UW encampment yesterday and it was basically what I expected based on my previous description that "this is just like the early days of CHAZ."

When I was at college we had an event every September for the freshmen where you would get six of your friends together and set up tents on the main student green, and you'd sleep over in the tents.  Everyone would decorate their tents so it kind of had this Halloween feel, and different student organizations and Greek houses would have their new freshman recruits turn their tents into an organization tent so it also served as kind of an orientation event.  You'd go to different tents to meet people and see what they were about.  And then there was also this kind of sexual aspect to it because the tents were coed so you were putting together a group of six friends you'd known for maybe a couple weeks, and maybe you wanted to know the girls better and hoped that by sleeping together in a small tent it would lead to some cuddling or some emotional intimacy or at least something to build on for the future.  It was also very socially stressful because "pick your top 6 friends" meant you would find out who considered you a top friend and who was going to exclude you.  Interesting phenomenon in general.

Anyway, that was what this reminded me of.  Every tent had its own "thing" going on and it was all playacting like they were either a warzone, or a music festival, or a mini-school.  So one tent was making s'mores, one tent was doing finger painting, one tent was offering to teach you about the time in 1475 the Jews kidnapped a toddler for ritual sacrifice and cannibalism.  There was some Arabic music being played over a speaker that I'm sure 95% of the students couldn't understand.  There were also tents for different organizations -- including one hilarious one for the evangelical christians on campus that said "Ask me why you will burn in hell" and was actually attracting the most attention as students wanted to intellectually defeat the guy trying to tell them why Jesus Christ was the truth.

It's very similar vibes to the early days of CHAZ, which people thought was just going to be a block party.  You had various pop-up canopies for different activities and organizations that you could browse, and there was food and drink and live music and most people were just treating it as a way to have fun.  But of course there were also lots of "ACAB" and "Defund the Police" and "Piggies go Home" and "Murderers!" and those kinds of signs and sidewalk chalk and posters and paintings and things like that, and plenty of people who wanted to tell you all about their ideology.  I really can't overstate just how much "From the river to the sea" and "Intifada!" are the two most popular slogans after the generic "Free Palestine" -- I thought "end the genocide" would be more popular but nope there was "intifada" plastered on everything in sight.

idk, kids in their 20s like doing this kind of thing, street festivals are one of the few ways left to have a proper third-space where people will actually want to talk to each other and socialize.  The problem is twofold.

First, they're doing it in service of a bad cause -- the Palestinian cause is bad, the intifada and 10/7 were blood-soaked terror events that are bad to celebrate or defend, and in particular the genocidal and racist anti-Zionist slogans like "from the river to the sea" are bad, and by and large they only support this because they are woefully misinformed, mostly by social media.  The sorts of signs and artwork that I saw of progressive paradise Palestine was reflective of this, you know, Gaza with the LGBTQIAP++ flag and things like that.

The second is that these sorts of things are often going to end up hijacked by the radicals and opportunists who will veer it off in a direction of violence and extremism and lawlessness.  That was what happened with CHAZ, that happened at Columbia and UCLA, I'm hoping it won't happen at UW because it will make my commute annoying to have streets shut down.

As someone who is not exactly a fan of the protests myself, you have gone too far.

WTF is "you have gone too far" supposed to mean here? GeneralMacArthur has done us the courtesy of providing an in-depth first person look that seems pretty damned objective to me (and my thanks to him for putting in the time to do so), plus two paragraphs of his own opinion, which, while I don't completely agree with him, are pretty damned reasonable. At the very least, a post like this deserves a better response than a single line ending with a condemnation.

[It’s so Joever]

I really think you should stop engaging with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as much as possible for the time being. We saw what you posted before you were infracted, and it’s clear that this is leading you down a very dark path. To put it bluntly, you are being - or have already been - radicalized into racism.

Nothing about this post is racist and you should apologize for making such an obviously false allegation.

Nothing about my post I got infracted for was racist either.  The mods have done me a disservice by deleting it so that people can just run around telling wild lies about what it said.  If anyone wants the actual original post, DM me on Discord.

You advocated for forcibly removing every last Palestinian from Gaza. How else do you want to to interpret that?

[ProgressiveModerate]

Don’t want to derail this thread but honestly one thing that these protests have made me think of is for these top schools, some of the students interviewed by the media are shockingly poor spoken. Obviously the media is going to post the more sensational interviews for the sake of narrative, but I think this really shows how schools like Columbia aren’t just full of these super bright bulbs.

[jojoju1998]

Don’t want to derail this thread but honestly one thing that these protests have made me think of is for these top schools, some of the students interviewed by the media are shockingly poor spoken. Obviously the media is going to post the more sensational interviews for the sake of narrative, but I think this really shows how schools like Columbia aren’t just full of these super bright bulbs.

Why do you think that is ?

[Lief 🗽]

I can't stress enough just how much >90% of employed people despise protests like this. The left has completely failed to appeal to working people and there seems to be no interest in fixing that.

These people aren't the left. These are extremist loons who have more in common with Alex Jones and David Duke than with any mainstream Democrat.

"Mainstream Democrats" are center-right to centrist. They are not on the left sphere, at least the way most of them feel about capitalism, where they continue to support the status quo in maintaining the system.

If that is your definition of the left then they are such a tiny irrelevant share of the voting population that they are not really worth discussing.

[OSR stands with Israel]

https://twitter.com/llassabe/status/1786282504129008008

Not in the way you think

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

https://twitter.com/llassabe/status/1786282504129008008

Not in the way you think

Yeah, this is one of those things that's a very good dunk if aesthetics is all that matters.

[7,052,770]

Maybe people will finally learn the difference in Ole Miss and Mississippi State...