Scotch-Irish?

[jimrtex]

This seems to be an American term for Ulster Scots.  In popular culture the Scotch-Irish are thought to be synonymous with Southern whites in general and Appalachia in particular.  For instance, I recall reading that Obama couldn't appeal to the "Scotch-Irish vote" as if that exists.

Most actual data I've seen says that English ancestry is more common than Scots-Irish ancestry in Appalachia.  I've seen advocates of this argument stretch the definition of "Celtic peoples" to include even the northern English, and say they were fundamentally different from Puritan Anglo Saxons of New England.

Has this taken off because the English in America are thought of as upper class and Celtic people have a more "romantic" image (the freedom loving Braveheart stereotype)?

American rebelled from England, so folks who came down the Valley of Virginia and into the upland South would not want to identify with being English, and to differentiate themselves from the Anglicans of the coastal lowlands who were mainly from the South of England. William of Orange was a hero to them, and they considered the Hanoverian regime to be a betrayal of the Glorious Revolution. The northwest of England was less influenced by the Anglo-Saxon and Norman invasions, and so they would be more likely to identify with Scots, ignoring that there were Saxon kingdoms in Scotland.

A couple of censuses ago, the highest concentrations of "Irish" ancestry were in Massachusetts and Mississippi. Those in Mississippi are more likely to say that they are of "American" ancestry.

[jimrtex]

But English ancestry was more common in the South in 1980 than anything else.  The only counties in the US where majorities said they were only English that year were in Eastern Kentucky. 

A non-English ancestry may be considered more exotic and have greater prestige. If a person had one German grandparent, and three English grandparents, they would be likely to report German-English, or German, particularly if their name was Schwartz, rather than Black. In addition the English ancestry may be more remote.

If the situation were reversed, with three German grandparents, and one English grandparent, the person would likely consider themselves to be of German ancestry.

[jimrtex]

My point is that your average White American probably has ancestors from as many countries as he/she has fingers.

I doubt that this is true except for coal miners who lost a hand in a mining accident.

[jimrtex]

Most people who have lineage that extends as far back as the Scotch Irish emigration will be a hodgepodge of Scottish, Ulster, Irish, English Welsh etc.

And yes I do think that there is a level of Anglophobia that stretches back in this country to the Revolution.  Hence in the south, you will see more identifying as plan American or Scotch Irish and the phenomenon of seemingly everyone claiming some Native American ancestry.

Not necessarily Anglophobia, but promotion of an American identity district from that of the English. For example, Washington Irving promoted the idea that the Spaniard Cristoforo Colombo, rather than the Englishman Giovanni Caboto was the discover of North America, even though it was Cabot's first voyage that is the basis of English territorial claims.

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

Prior to this, they were English living in America. After that, they were Americans.

The census did not start asking question about ancestry until the mid-20th Century, when fewer and fewer Americans could cite a foreign birth. The Census used "foreign stock" to refer to first and second generation immigrants. People might not have made note of their family lineage, particularly when living grandparents were not as common. If a child asks a grandparent about how things were when they were young, they might not recount what their grandfather had done.

So when the census started asking ancestry questions, people might be making something up. If they had an immigrant ancestor from the mid-to-late 19th century they might use that.

[jimrtex]

No, they most certainly did regard themselves as English and did so every bit as much as people further south. The Venerable Bede was a Northumbrian you know.

He lived on the coast. Northumbria went up to the Firth of Forth, but how much penetration was there of the Pennines?

[jimrtex]

The northwest of England was less influenced by the Anglo-Saxon and Norman invasions, and so they would be more likely to identify with Scots, ignoring that there were Saxon kingdoms in Scotland.

...

Words fail.

No one outside Scotland would have identified themselves as Scots or Scottish or whatever. No one. Largely because they, you know, were not Scottish. In any case to most people in Northern England the Scots were a bunch of barely civilised nuisance neighbours who invaded every now and again, caused a mess, and buggered off home once they'd lost/run of supplies/etc...

Identify with the Scottish. How many people who live in Cumberland or Lancashire support Chelsea?

If you were an indentured servant who went inland after working off your service, your attitude toward the poofs along the coast would be similar to that of northwest England towards the poofs in the Home Counties.

The presidents from Tennessee all had (or may have had) Scottish or Ulster Scots background. Andrew Jackson's parents were from Carrickfergus. James Knox Polk's, maternal great-grandparents (last name Knox) were from Renfrewshire and Coleraine. There is uncertainty of Andrew Johnson's ancestry, with various possibilities of England, Scotland, and Northern Ireland.

[jimrtex]

One Irish American historian (Doyle) said 10% of Famine and post-Famine immigrants were Catholic, another (Miller) estimates around 20%.  I'm inclined to say it's closer to the latter.

Is this reversed?

[jimrtex]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grady_McWhiney

A Celtic heritage for the Upland South would not be attributed to the Southern planter class - but rather to distinguish themselves from it. Similarly, former indentured servants, who moved west where they could own land, might have a folk memory of being treated as slaves by the Anglican planters.

[jimrtex]

A Celtic heritage for the Upland South would not be attributed to the Southern planter class - but rather to distinguish themselves from it. Similarly, former indentured servants, who moved west where they could own land, might have a folk memory of being treated as slaves by the Anglican planters.

But if most were never "Celtic" to begin with, why would they identify as such?

The critique of McWhiney's theories in Wikipedia said:

"However, McWhiney's theories do not address large-scale Irish immigration to New York, Boston, and other northern cities. They also ignore the degree to which the Southern planter class resembled the English gentry in lineage, religion, and social structure. Furthermore his work avoids mentioning or acknowledging the fact that the largest group of pre-Revolution immigrants to the Southern colonies were English indentured servants who vastly outnumbered the "Celtic" settlers both in numbers and in cultural influence."

My comments:

(1) They don't need to address the large-scale Irish immigration to New York, Boston, and other northern cities beginning in the 1840s.

(2) Having not read McWhiney's books, it is not clear whether he makes a distinction between the upland South, and the lowlands - one review of his book says he failed to do so. I assumed he had.

Those claiming Irish ancestry in Mississippi to almost the level of Massachusetts were in the northeastern corner. They weren't of the planter class. Nor were those who moved down the Valley of Virginia and through the Cumberland Gap.

An indentured servant is the equivalent of being leased; only slightly better than being owned. After you worked off your servitude, you would not be able to afford to own land. You might be competing economically with slaves and other indentured servants. So you head west.

If your new neighbor is O'McGibson are you going to complain that he doesn't have a powdered wig like your former master (not employer)? No you are going to get along fine, particularly if he has a comely, marriageable daughter. Your children might remember Grandpa O'McGibson, since Grandpa Smith died when you were 12 - that is why you ended up being indentured in the first place. Even if you were not wholly Celtic (O'McGibson wasn't either, being part Briton, part Celt, part Saxon, with additions of Norman and Viking). It doesn't take that many generations to go from identifying with the Celts to identifying as a Celt.

And from celebrating the Battle of the Boyne with parades and fireworks to celebrating the 4th of July with parades and fireworks.

[jimrtex]

White population in selected states, 1790:

Virginia

English/Welsh:  375,799  85%
Scotch/Irish:  40,233  9.1%

North Carolina

English/Welsh: 240,309  83.1%
Scotch/Irish:  39,039  13.5%

South Carolina

English/Welsh:  115,480  82.4%
Scotch/Irish:  20,023  13.4%

Even if we make the generous assumption that the Scottish/Irish share is double the reported figures, they still lag way behind the English.  

Do you have figures for counties?

[jimrtex]

If your new neighbor is O'McGibson are you going to complain that he doesn't have a powdered wig like your former master (not employer)? No you are going to get along fine, particularly if he has a comely, marriageable daughter. Your children might remember Grandpa O'McGibson, since Grandpa Smith died when you were 12 - that is why you ended up being indentured in the first place. Even if you were not wholly Celtic (O'McGibson wasn't either, being part Briton, part Celt, part Saxon, with additions of Norman and Viking). It doesn't take that many generations to go from identifying with the Celts to identifying as a Celt.

And from celebrating the Battle of the Boyne with parades and fireworks to celebrating the 4th of July with parades and fireworks.

The Scots-Irish, being a minority, would melted into the larger Anglo Saxon group, not the other way around.

Since there was a lot of racist pseudoscience in the 19th century, you'd think there would be ample evidence that the planter class saw themselves as a different race than the poorer "Celts."

Who was there first - and who would have more of a community structure? Were indentured servants family groups? And wouldn't they be more comfortable aligning themselves with Dissenters, rather than the established church?

[jimrtex]

In every Southern state in 1980, English ancestry outnumbered Irish ancestry.   And most of the former said they were only of English ancestry.  For the region as a whole:

English ancestry

Total:  19,618,370
Single ancestry:  12,382,681  

Irish ancestry

Total:  12,709,872
Single:  3,593,729

Can you break that down by county?

[jimrtex]

I don't know where to find it online. 

http://www.nhgis.org

Here is a peek: In 1980, single ancestry Irish, top 20:

22.0% Loving, TX (20 of 91 persons)
17.7% Lafayette, FL (Northern Florida)
17.6% Norfolk, MA (Boston suburbs)
17.1% Smith, MS (south central MS, east of Jackson)
15.7% Suffolk, MA (Boston, etc.)
15.6% Houston, TN (NW Middle Tennessee, west of Nashville)
15.1% Cleveland, AR (SC Arkansas, south of Little Rock)
14.6% Tishomingo, MS (NE corner of MS, 3.1% black in 2010)
14.1% Silver Bow, MT (Butte)
14.0% Hinsdale, CO (SW Colorado, west of Creede)
13.8% Webster, MS (north central MS, east-westerly of Yoknapatawpha County)
13.6% Clay, NC (western tip of NC)
13.5% Greeley, NE (east central NE - Wikipedia says 2nd most Democratic county in state)
13.4% Plymouth, MA (Boston exurbs)
13.3% Middlesex, MA (Boston suburbs)
13.0% Delaware, PA (Philadelphia suburbs)
12.8% Haralson, GA (Atlanta exurb, on AL line - has grown 50% since 1980)
12.7% Choctaw, MS (immediately south of Webster, see above)
12.7% Barnstable, MA (Boston retirement)
12.2% Stone, MS (panhandle, Biloxi exurb, doubled since 1980)

Source:

Minnesota Population Center. National Historical Geographic Information
System: Version 2.0. Minneapolis, MN: University of Minnesota 2011.

http://www.nhgis.org

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Data Summary
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Year:             1980
Geographic level: County (by State)
Dataset:          1980 Census: STF 3 - Sample-Based Data
   NHGIS code:    1980_STF3
   NHGIS ID:      ds107
Breakdown(s):     Geographic Subarea:
                     Total area (0000)
 
Tables:
 
1. Ancestry
   Universe:    Persons
   Source code: NT28
   NHGIS code:  DG0

[jimrtex]

Did they outnumber English single ancestry in the Southern counties on that list?

No. The top are around 50%.

Irish outnumber English in counties with more than 12% Irish:

Massachusetts: Middlesex (1.68), Norfolk (2.30), Plymouth (1.34), Suffolk (3.65)
Montana: Silver Bow (1.52)
Nebraska: Greeley (3.24)
Pennsylvania: Delaware (2.16)
Texas: Loving (2.86)   Irish outnumber English 20 to 7.

If you reduce the Irish single ancestry to 5% (note percentages are relative to total population and not those reporting a single ancestry) you will find lots of urban counties in the northeast where Irish outnumber English. That is where post-Famine Irish displaced English, and have not become too dilute themselves.

There are lots of data sets here:

Minnesota Population Center. National Historical Geographic Information
System: Version 2.0. Minneapolis, MN: University of Minnesota 2011.

http://www.nhgis.org

They're free for non-commercial use and it is easy to register.