Pledge of Allegiance Bill of 2005 (WITHDRAWN)

[Joe Republic]

Just in case somebody missed it, I've posted an opinion poll in the elections board, to gauge popular opinion on the issue.

Feel free to check it out here.

[Emsworth]

Honorable Senators,

When I suggested this bill, I held the view that it would be effectively impossible to convince the Senate and the People to abolish the pledge. Hence, I held that removing "under God" would have to suffice.

Yet, it would appear that the People are indeed in support of the abolition of the pledge. Why, they ask, is a pledge even necessary? Why, they ask, shall the government prescribe what is orthodox in matters of nationalism and opinion? Why, they ask, shall the government enforce nationalism? I am of the same mind as the People on this issue.

Therefore, I humbly request a Senator to introduce the following amendment to the bill:

The pledge of allegiance to the flag of Atlasia is hereby abolished.

[Gabu]

Honorable Senators,

When I suggested this bill, I held the view that it would be effectively impossible to convince the Senate and the People to abolish the pledge. Hence, I held that removing "under God" would have to suffice.

Yet, it would appear that the People are indeed in support of the abolition of the pledge. Why, they ask, is a pledge even necessary? Why, they ask, shall the government prescribe what is orthodox in matters of nationalism and opinion? Why, they ask, shall the government enforce nationalism? I am of the same mind as the People on this issue.

Therefore, I humbly request a Senator to introduce the following amendment to the bill:

The pledge of allegiance to the flag of Atlasia is hereby abolished.

Well, given that a surprising plurality support the full abolition of the pledge... I'll introduce Emsworth's amendment.

[Ebowed]

Excellent to hear.

[MasterJedi]

I will not support the abolition of the pledge. In the poll that's taking place more people want to keep the pledge the way it is or change it to "under Dave", not get rid of it.

I hope other Senators decide to vote Nay and keep the pledge the way it is.

[Ebowed]

The only main reason I see the honorable Senators who wish to keep the Pledge at all (with either God or Dave) is tradition.  We've had the Pledge for a long time, so they say, why get rid of it?  Here's why: it is futile for the government to legislate patriotism.  Let us compare this to what is occuring in American politics with the flag burning amendment.  The honorable congressmen who oppose that bill are shunned by their peers in Congress and the media as unpatriotic.  Yet, the only time we really have problems with the American flag being burnt is when Congress tries to restrict freedom of expression with that amendment.  To all social conservatives, I beg you to consider the following: extreme authoritarianism does not keep us safe; it leads to rebellion.  By legislating patriotism, you are telling your citizens what they can and cannot think.  Is this not a violation of freedom of speech, freedom of thought, and freedom of religion?  What do you say to your constituents in your home region or district, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, who, because of their religious beliefs, refuse to pledge allegiance to any government, country, or flag?

To Senators MHS2002, King, and Colin Wixted, who appear to be undecided on the matter: is it really worth it to change the Pledge?  Why not abolish it altogether?  This may seem like a minute issue when compared to the war on terror, the economic crisis, and the problems with forum activity.  But I say, no issue of civil liberties is too small.  No right should be taken for granted.  We cannot attempt to end the war on terror when we defeat the purpose.  We fight terrorism to protect our rights and liberty.  Any Senator who believes in protecting our liberties will vote against the amendment to alter the wording of the Pledge, and will vote in favor of the amendment that will abolish it.

[MasterJedi]

You know you have the right to say or not to say the pledge, you don't have to say it if you don't want to so your right is not being taken away.

I encourage the undecided Senators to vote against abolishing the pledge. If you must at least vote to change it instead of abolishing it but I still encourage all Senators to vote to keep the pledge the way it is!

[Emsworth]

You know you have the right to say or not to say the pledge, you don't have to say it if you don't want to so your right is not being taken away.

That is not (with all due respect) a particularly relevant issue. The government is still trying to regulate and legislate patriotism. It is attempting to impose its brand of patriotism and nationalism on the country, which it ought not to do. The government is telling the people what they must believe in in order to be patriotic, which is utterly wrong.

[Ebowed]

I encourage the undecided Senators to vote against abolishing the pledge. If you must at least vote to change it instead of abolishing it but I still encourage all Senators to vote to keep the pledge the way it is!

Why do you think the government should legislate and regulate patriotism?  Specifically: what purpose does the Pledge serve?

[MasterJedi]

You are free to not say the pledge so it's not "forcing patriotism on you". If it was mandatory to say then I wouldn't mind changing that. They'd like you to say the pledge and be patriotic that way, I'll agree with you on that but they can't force you to do it.

[Emsworth]

You are free to not say the pledge so it's not "forcing patriotism on you". If it was mandatory to say then I wouldn't mind changing that. They'd like you to say the pledge and be patriotic that way, I'll agree with you on that but they can't force you to do it.

Yes, of course it cannot be forced on anyone. However, the questions still are: what purpose does it serve? And, why should the government legislate patriotism?

[MasterJedi]

You are free to not say the pledge so it's not "forcing patriotism on you". If it was mandatory to say then I wouldn't mind changing that. They'd like you to say the pledge and be patriotic that way, I'll agree with you on that but they can't force you to do it.

Yes, of course it cannot be forced on anyone. However, the questions still are: what purpose does it serve? And, why should the government legislate patriotism?

It's to try to give one, concrete way to express patriotism. But as said before you don't have to do it but you want to take away people's rights like me (or many other people) who like saying/using the pledge because it's been around for a long time? And yes the government can try to legislate patriotism if they want to and if the people like it they'll stick with it and if the people don't like it it won't work, simple as that. Oh and as said earlier it's all mandatory so if the government tries and you don't like it don't do it but don't try to take away other people's right to do it that way.

[Emsworth]

It's to try to give one, concrete way to express patriotism.

That's exactly my problem with the pledge. I see no reason for the government to say that there is one "official" way of expressing patriotism. The government should not seek to dictate what officially constitutes patriotism and what does not.

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That is, I'm afraid to say, a very flawed argument. We're not trying to take away anyone's free speech rights.

[MasterJedi]

It's to try to give one, concrete way to express patriotism.

That's exactly my problem with the pledge. I see no reason for the government to say that there is one "official" way of expressing patriotism. The government should not seek to dictate what officially constitutes patriotism and what does not.

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That is, I'm afraid to say, a very flawed argument. We're not trying to take away anyone's free speech rights.

It's to try and give one way but it's not trying to make it the only way. If they did try to make the pledge the only way I'd be against it to but they're not so there is no logical reason to abolish or change it based on this.

If you're not trying to take away free speech in saying the pledge leave it the way it is and don't try to get rid of it. It won't be said that often if it is because you're saying "we don't like this idea".

[Emsworth]

It's to try and give one way but it's not trying to make it the only way.

It is, however, according to the government, the official way: which the government has no authority to do.

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The amendment just removes the pledge's official status. People can say it if they want to, unofficially.

[MasterJedi]

It's not like this will solve anything (you and me arguing). I'd like to see what the other Senators have to say now.

[Ebowed]

It's to try to give one, concrete way to express patriotism.

Why is it the responsibility of the government to define to its citizens how to be patriotic?

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The government can also try to legislate the legality of abortion and if the people like it they'll stick with it.  Does that make it right?  Secondly, abolishing the pledge does not take away any rights from you; it only gives you more rights.  With the pledge abolished, you are able to define patriotism as you please.

It's to try and give one way but it's not trying to make it the only way. If they did try to make the pledge the only way I'd be against it to but they're not so there is no logical reason to abolish or change it based on this.

It is the country's official pledge of allegiance.  It is blatantly legislated patriotism.  And even if it were not the only way to express patriotism, why is the government supposed to define patriotism for us?  Are you implying that your constituents are not intelligent to express their patriotism on their own, without the help of the government?  I'm sure that the Mideast region will be shocked to hear that.

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Free speech is protected by the abolition, not the protection, of the pledge.  The government having an official pledge that legislates nationalism and patriotism, regardless of whether or not it is mandatory, is what it is: legislating patriotism.

[Sam Spade]

What do you say to your constituents in your home region or district, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, who, because of their religious beliefs, refuse to pledge allegiance to any government, country, or flag?

Jehovah's Witnesses are just lunatics.  Fortunately for all of us, they don't vote. 

[Emsworth]

Senator Gabu, since there seems to be a misunderstanding about the intent of the "abolition" of the pledge, I request that you disregard the previous amendment and replace it with the following instead:

There shall be no officially sanctioned pledge of allegiance to Atlasia, its flag, or its government.

[Ebowed]

What do you say to your constituents in your home region or district, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, who, because of their religious beliefs, refuse to pledge allegiance to any government, country, or flag?

Jehovah's Witnesses are just lunatics. Fortunately for all of us, they don't vote.

Of course they're lunatics-- but they still have rights.

[MasterJedi]

What do you say to your constituents in your home region or district, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, who, because of their religious beliefs, refuse to pledge allegiance to any government, country, or flag?

Jehovah's Witnesses are just lunatics. Fortunately for all of us, they don't vote.

Of course they're lunatics-- but they still have rights.

Yes your right, they don't have  to do anything that's patriotic, as I said before but you don't get that I guess. It's not mandatory.

And I oppose Emsoworth's amdmendment that Gabu introduced. (The new one too)

[Joe Republic]

It's not mandatory.

So why have it?

[MasterJedi]

It's not mandatory.

So why have it?

To give people the chance to show their patriotism during the times when the pledge is currently done now.

[Emsworth]

To give people the chance to show their patriotism during the times when the pledge is currently done now.

Let them decide how to show their patriotism themselves. There is no need for the government to tell them how to do it; I'm sure that citizens are perfectly capable of being patriotic.

[MasterJedi]

To give people the chance to show their patriotism during the times when the pledge is currently done now.

Let them decide how to show their patriotism themselves. There is no need for the government to tell them how to do it; I'm sure that citizens are perfectly capable of being patriotic.

I government is asking not "telling" but you just want to abolish the pledge and not really listen to what I'm saying.