Young goats and mother's milk
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« on: May 23, 2013, 06:14:59 PM »

Exodus 23:19, Exodus 34:26, and Deuteronomy 14:21 all contain the same prohibition about not cooking a young goat in its mother's milk, or at least that's the conventional interpretation.  It seems like an odd prohibition and as I understand it, the Talmudic scholars of the 2nd century simply accepted it as unexplainable with some speculation about an old heathen rituals.

However, I had a thought, which fits my limited understanding of Hebrew grammar, so it could be completely wrong.  There are several people here with a better understanding than me, so I figured I'd see if anyone here can disprove my speculation which concerns the meaning of the preposition ב.  Instead of "a young goat in its mother's milk" what if the intended meaning was "a young goat on its mother's milk" or to put it plainly: an unweaned kid.  The Bible includes a number of poetic ways of expressing concepts and that prohibition is not as inexplicable as the one traditionally given.

Of course besides an improper use of grammar, it's possible I've overlooked some other passage that would argue against my speculative interpretation.
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Oldiesfreak1854
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« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2013, 05:29:56 PM »

That prohibition is the main reason why Jews can't eat meat and dairy together (e.g. cheeseburgers), but I always interpreted it as meaning as cooking it in milk like cooking in gravy, with oil, etc.  I've never seen someone put their meat in milk to cook, and that's how I always had understood those verses.  Personally, I think the kosher laws were primarily meant as health guidelines, and while some of them certainly make sense from a health standpoint (like this one), I can see the other side as well.  Many of the nations that God drove out of Canaan when the Hebrews returned from Egypt practiced some of the things that were banned in the kosher laws (like eating fat and blood, eating and sacrificing non-kosher animals, etc.)  Of course, I don't think this is the only reason that God gave them those rules, but they still make sense in that context.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2013, 09:37:04 PM »

Well, kashrut certainly generalizes the literal meaning of that prohibition far beyond a de minimus restriction, with highly observant Jews choosing to not even mix meat and dairy in the same meal, let alone the same dish.
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2013, 08:04:58 AM »

Eh. I've seen Jewish people eat pork but recoil at the site of putting cheese and pork on the same slice of bread.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2013, 08:43:52 AM »

Eh. I've seen Jewish people eat pork but recoil at the site of putting cheese and pork on the same slice of bread.

How long did they avoid that location?  Several days or only until the sandwich was eaten and out of sightTongue
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2013, 09:00:57 AM »

Eh. I've seen Jewish people eat pork but recoil at the site of putting cheese and pork on the same slice of bread.

How long did they avoid that location?  Several days or only until the sandwich was eaten and out of sightTongue
Oy vey.

If you want to have differently spelled words mean different things, I suggest pronouncing them differently.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2013, 09:43:19 AM »

Eh. I've seen Jewish people eat pork but recoil at the site of putting cheese and pork on the same slice of bread.

How long did they avoid that location?  Several days or only until the sandwich was eaten and out of sightTongue
Oy vey.

If you want to have differently spelled words mean different things, I suggest pronouncing them differently.

Who sez Ah want that? Inglish wud bee mutch moor intrestin with vairiable spelin.
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DemPGH
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« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2013, 06:34:27 PM »

Yes, a lot of those laws started out as health concerns, but later they likely became very rigid social norms. It just might be as revolting as cooking "road kill" or something, but it is strange at least to me in the present that anyone inclined to eat a hamburger or pork in the first place would object that strongly to a piece of cheese being tossed on it. Nonetheless, that may be the case.

There may be a moral objection too - "on" its mother's milk as in "being nourished by its mother's milk"? That could mean the goat or lamb is simply too young. Consuming it that young may be viewed as a sign of disrespect or it may be viewed as a waste of a food source to eat something that's that young - still being nourished by its mother. That seems the obvious answer. But there may be a superstition at work as well that I'm unaware of.
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Vosem
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« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2013, 09:53:43 PM »

When I was studying for my bar mitzvah, I was told that not only was that one way it might have been interpreted, but also that the words 'milk' and 'fat' were spelled the same way, and the Torah isn't supposed to have niqqud so in theory it could be either; and that the way we know 'in milk' is the correct interpretation is because that is the tradition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRdfX7ut8gw
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2013, 12:10:00 AM »

"In its mother's fat" makes even less sense than "in its mother's milk", so I'm slightly surprised that isn't the tradition. Tongue

More seriously, I'm glad to hear that grammatically "on its mother's milk" makes sense.  At worst the alternate interpretation I've put forth is a broader version of the literal meaning of the traditional interpretation.  Of course, if one takes the flights of fancy concerning the separation of meat and dairy found in kashrut as your basis, my alternate doesn't support that.  But then if I were a Jew I'd lean towards being a Karaite anyway, so that doesn't bother me.
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