$1.5 Trillion GOP Tax Cut Thread

[jaichind]

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/trump-suggests-openness-to-negotiations-on-tax-plan/

"Trump told reporters at the White House before a trip to New York City that he would consider setting the corporate tax rate at 22 percent, compared to a 20 percent rate that he has pushed for with House and Senate Republicans during the fall."

[MasterJedi]

A number of my left-wing friends have said, "as much as it sucks that it's a corporate give away, I desperately need to keep some more money." Most of my friends makes between $35k and $55k (myself included). What's the best argument to use to encourage my friends not to support this tax plan?

Massive deficit increase and that their taxes will go up permanently in 3-4 years with this plan so short term marginal gain for long term pain.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

The Republican party just died. Congrats politically to Democrats but terrible economically for the country.

Watch the stock market.

It did great under Obama for 8 years. That wasn't good enough for you though, was it?

Most Americans don't own any stocks.

They might not own them directly, but a fair number do indirectly thru their retirement funds, if they have them.

So far the after-market activity has been for it to be down slightly.  The market appears to have already priced in the passage of the tax cut.

[Landslide Lyndon]

Won't matter. When Hillary ran in 2016, people blamed her for losing their jobs to NAFTA even though she had nothing to do with it. Same thing will happen with Biden on top of his Senate voting record which is absolutely one of the worst

People also accused her of running a child-sex ring from the basement of a pizza parlor.
If truth doesn't matter to you then get the f out of here and go join Free Republic and Breitbart.

[Progressive]

A number of my left-wing friends have said, "as much as it sucks that it's a corporate give away, I desperately need to keep some more money." Most of my friends makes between $35k and $55k (myself included). What's the best argument to use to encourage my friends not to support this tax plan?

Massive deficit increase and that their taxes will go up permanently in 3-4 years with this plan so short term marginal gain for long term pain.

Exactly I agree. But it's just like--so hard to tell someone not to like extra money in their pockets. That's part of why this bill is so damn toxic.

[MasterJedi]

A number of my left-wing friends have said, "as much as it sucks that it's a corporate give away, I desperately need to keep some more money." Most of my friends makes between $35k and $55k (myself included). What's the best argument to use to encourage my friends not to support this tax plan?

Massive deficit increase and that their taxes will go up permanently in 3-4 years with this plan so short term marginal gain for long term pain.

Exactly I agree. But it's just like--so hard to tell someone not to like extra money in their pockets. That's part of why this bill is so damn toxic.

Hand them $300-400, tell them that's their savings for 3-4 years, now ask for it all back, say that's what happens in 3-4 years.

[Indy Texas]

A number of my left-wing friends have said, "as much as it sucks that it's a corporate give away, I desperately need to keep some more money." Most of my friends makes between $35k and $55k (myself included). What's the best argument to use to encourage my friends not to support this tax plan?

That the deficits caused by this tax plan would only give the GOP the ammo to then cut all sorts entitlement programs which in turn will cut the net material standard living of your friends on the long run.  Of course this argument would make me want to support this plan but the same argument can b used to convince someone center-left to oppose this plan.

Please tell us about all the jobs you're going to create with your tax cut.

If you want to live in a polluted, crony capitalist garbage heap, why don't you go back to China?

Sorry.  Not sure I get your feedback.  I back this plan partly because unwinding the marriage tax penalty as  well as unwinding of federal subsidies for high tax state/local governments.  I also back it as a way to starve the beast which in turn would lead to reduction to various welfare programs.  The creation of more jobs was never a goal for me to support this plan.  I agree that on the short run there will be an economic sugar high in the corporate tax rates and lead to greater economic activity which helps Trumps re-election.  On the whole I OPPOSE this aspect of this plan since it risks higher inflation.  So not sure what any of this has to do with number of jobs or in particular industrial jobs which I guess would lead to more pollution.  Of course Trump would want people to believe that this plan will lead to more industrial jobs.  I am not sure of that and I really do not care.  The goal for me is and always will be reduction of the welfare state.

You completely missed my sarcasm.

Anyway, there will be no reduction in the welfare state. The political wherewithal for that isn't there: it wasn't in 2005 when Bush's Social Security plan failed; it wasn't this year when healthcare reform failed.

Most of us happen to like taking care of poor people. You don't because you are a selfish, hateful person.

[Person Man]

A number of my left-wing friends have said, "as much as it sucks that it's a corporate give away, I desperately need to keep some more money." Most of my friends makes between $35k and $55k (myself included). What's the best argument to use to encourage my friends not to support this tax plan?

That the deficits caused by this tax plan would only give the GOP the ammo to then cut all sorts entitlement programs which in turn will cut the net material standard living of your friends on the long run.  Of course this argument would make me want to support this plan but the same argument can b used to convince someone center-left to oppose this plan.

Please tell us about all the jobs you're going to create with your tax cut.

If you want to live in a polluted, crony capitalist garbage heap, why don't you go back to China?

Sorry.  Not sure I get your feedback.  I back this plan partly because unwinding the marriage tax penalty as  well as unwinding of federal subsidies for high tax state/local governments.  I also back it as a way to starve the beast which in turn would lead to reduction to various welfare programs.  The creation of more jobs was never a goal for me to support this plan.  I agree that on the short run there will be an economic sugar high in the corporate tax rates and lead to greater economic activity which helps Trumps re-election.  On the whole I OPPOSE this aspect of this plan since it risks higher inflation.  So not sure what any of this has to do with number of jobs or in particular industrial jobs which I guess would lead to more pollution.  Of course Trump would want people to believe that this plan will lead to more industrial jobs.  I am not sure of that and I really do not care.  The goal for me is and always will be reduction of the welfare state.

You completely missed my sarcasm.

Anyway, there will be no reduction in the welfare state. The political wherewithal for that isn't there: it wasn't in 2005 when Bush's Social Security plan failed; it wasn't this year when healthcare reform failed.

Most of us happen to like taking care of poor people. You don't because you are a selfish, hateful person.

I think it has something to do with Confucian thinking. Hierarchy is very important and there is no virtue of asking something of your seniors while being unable to offer anything in return.

[Indy Texas]

A number of my left-wing friends have said, "as much as it sucks that it's a corporate give away, I desperately need to keep some more money." Most of my friends makes between $35k and $55k (myself included). What's the best argument to use to encourage my friends not to support this tax plan?

That the deficits caused by this tax plan would only give the GOP the ammo to then cut all sorts entitlement programs which in turn will cut the net material standard living of your friends on the long run.  Of course this argument would make me want to support this plan but the same argument can b used to convince someone center-left to oppose this plan.

Please tell us about all the jobs you're going to create with your tax cut.

If you want to live in a polluted, crony capitalist garbage heap, why don't you go back to China?

Sorry.  Not sure I get your feedback.  I back this plan partly because unwinding the marriage tax penalty as  well as unwinding of federal subsidies for high tax state/local governments.  I also back it as a way to starve the beast which in turn would lead to reduction to various welfare programs.  The creation of more jobs was never a goal for me to support this plan.  I agree that on the short run there will be an economic sugar high in the corporate tax rates and lead to greater economic activity which helps Trumps re-election.  On the whole I OPPOSE this aspect of this plan since it risks higher inflation.  So not sure what any of this has to do with number of jobs or in particular industrial jobs which I guess would lead to more pollution.  Of course Trump would want people to believe that this plan will lead to more industrial jobs.  I am not sure of that and I really do not care.  The goal for me is and always will be reduction of the welfare state.

You completely missed my sarcasm.

Anyway, there will be no reduction in the welfare state. The political wherewithal for that isn't there: it wasn't in 2005 when Bush's Social Security plan failed; it wasn't this year when healthcare reform failed.

Most of us happen to like taking care of poor people. You don't because you are a selfish, hateful person.

I think it has something to do with Confucian thinking. Hierarchy is very important and there is no virtue of asking something of your seniors while being unable to offer anything in return.

Hierarchy also entails obligation on the part of those at the top, just as it does deference on the part of those at the bottom. That is the root of the idea of noblesse oblige.

I don't know if there is an East Asian equivalent of that, but if there is, jaichind clearly never heard about it.

[Yank2133]

Vox.com says this could die in conference

Vox says alot of things.

This won't die in conference. Unlike the ACA repeal, Republicans actually want to pass a tax cut bill. They will work out their differences.

[Pyro]

Vox.com says this could die in conference

Vox says alot of things.

This won't die in conference. Unlike the ACA repeal, Republicans actually want to pass a tax cut bill. They will work out their differences.

[Virginiá]

could != likely

I am quite confident that Republicans will work out their differences. Tax cuts for corporations and the wealthy is a big, big deal to them. Aside from blocking liberal policy, tax cuts for those who need them the least is pretty much the reason the Republican Party exists, at least so far as the people who actually control the party are concerned.

[pbrower2a]

A number of my left-wing friends have said, "as much as it sucks that it's a corporate give away, I desperately need to keep some more money." Most of my friends makes between $35k and $55k (myself included). What's the best argument to use to encourage my friends not to support this tax plan?

Suggest ways of saving money -- like doing some shopping at Goodwill, Salvation Army, or St. Vincent DePaul.  Brown-bag a lunch on occasion. See whether you can cut back on cable TVF service by giving up channels that you rarely watch. Buy generic foods at the grocery store if they are adequate. Have a yard sale. Sell off some collectibles that no longer thrill you.

Take vacations closer to home.  Make fewer trips to the shopping mall or the box store. Arrange for automatic deductions for savings.

These are tough times unless one is part of the economic elite. There is no escape from that reality. If this tax cut, really a heist by a few people intent on transforming America into a pure plutocracy, things stand to get really bad as the elites find ways to cut wages and compel people to work unpaid overtime.

Of course this heist will succeed because evil people dominate the American political system.

[Shadows]

A number of my left-wing friends have said, "as much as it sucks that it's a corporate give away, I desperately need to keep some more money." Most of my friends makes between $35k and $55k (myself included). What's the best argument to use to encourage my friends not to support this tax plan?

Massive deficit increase and that their taxes will go up permanently in 3-4 years with this plan so short term marginal gain for long term pain.

Exactly I agree. But it's just like--so hard to tell someone not to like extra money in their pockets. That's part of why this bill is so damn toxic.

Here is how the Deficit will hurt - It will cause not just huge cuts to SS, Medicare or Medicaid which your friends will someday depend on (& some of their family members do) but it will hurt the general fiscal position. Servicing the debt is a problem when Interest rates rise from their historic low. Every year more & more $ will go into Interest leaving fewer amount left. The biggest purchaser or T-Bills or US Govt. Bonds is probably China which means China will be financing this debt.

The Individual cuts are all temporary & expire in 2027. The plan has massive loopholes & giveways - From Private jets to tax haven companies in the Virgin Islands & the amendments have been written by the lobbyists. Ask your friends is it good to give 70-80% of the benefits to the Top 1% & give the remaining few to the middle class, give them some crumbs & they can be happy?

BTW - If they are from NY or CA or will settle there eventually, SALT exemption capped at 10,000 $ (even if that is final deduction) would mean they would lose money when they to the 75-100-125$ K odd income (Comfortable Middle Class).

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Biden wrote the 1994 crime bill that packed our prisons with minorities, a bill which if it had not passed would have allowed the Democrats to win every election. All of the disenfranchised felons that were stopped from voting is one of the reasons Gore lost Florida.

And the fact that the 2016 candidate was the wife of the man who signed it in law might have had something to do with minorities not turning out.

That's why they supported her heavily in the primary, am I right?

I don't have the time to go grab numbers right now, but my recollection is that primary turnout is only a fraction of GE turnout.  So yes, she would've gotten high minority support for a primary, but still gotten less minority GE support than one might reasonably expect from a candidate with D after their name. Sexism and a sub-par campaign operation could also account for some of it.

[Sestak]

A number of my left-wing friends have said, "as much as it sucks that it's a corporate give away, I desperately need to keep some more money." Most of my friends makes between $35k and $55k (myself included). What's the best argument to use to encourage my friends not to support this tax plan?

If all your friends are in NY, their taxes are probably going up because of no SALT...

Also the cuts are temporary.

[pbrower2a]

This tax policy is intended to punish people who did not support Donald Trump and the Reactionary Party. It is worse than bad public policy; it is a crime against all that is decent in the American political heritage. All that surprises me was that certain ethnic groups are not subjected to discriminatory taxes.

A government that can make its opponents suffer and then chooses to impose such suffering  is on the fast track to tyranny.

The solution to 2017  is

1776

[Shadows]

Bernie Sanders calls tax bill “class warfare” at Dayton event

The Vermont senator and 2016 Democratic presidential candidate called the tax bill “a moral outrage” and “class warfare,” saying that Republicans are “looting the federal government” to give tax breaks to people who don’t need them.

“The legislation passed last night gives incredibly large tax breaks to the very, very wealthy, it raises taxes on millions of middle-class families, it leaves 13 million more Americans without health insurance … and it raises the deficit by $1.4 trillion,” Sanders said. Sanders urged people to call their representatives and senators now to have an impact on how the final bill is presented to Trump in the coming weeks. Sanders argued the tax bill is part of a larger pattern where Trump campaigned on helping working families, but is now championing policies that will hurt them. “A year has come and gone since Mr. Trump won, and I think it is now clear to most Americans that Donald Trump was not telling the truth,” Sanders said.

The Ohio Republican Party called Sanders’ arguments about a struggling America “a socialist sales pitch.” “Ohio voters rejected the far-left, job-killing economic policies of Sanders and (Sherrod) Brown last year by overwhelmingly electing President Trump,” Ohio Republican Party Executive Director Rob Secaur said in a statement. “With the economy booming and tax reform on the horizon, Sanders and Brown are out of touch and out of luck in Ohio.”

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/bernie-sanders-calls-tax-bill-class-warfare-dayton-event/9k3y73uCwwCxsPK8mtDw5J/

Democrats need to go out & educate people about the terrible tax bill so that people atleast make an informed choice.

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

Do we have any idea who will actually be in the room for reconciliation on Monday? I'm planning on doing another round of phone calls on Monday but I want to make sure I'm not wasting my energy by calling people who will have no influence on the final product.

[Hindsight was 2020]

If there is truly one thing dems need to learn from Bernie (aside from the popular/smart progressive policies that is) is to use common sense/simple language when fighting the GOP and calling this bill "class warfare" on the middle class is a perfect example

[Shadows]

If their is truly one thing dems need to learn from Bernie (aside from the popular/smart progressive policies that is) is to use common sense/simple language when fighting the GOP and calling this bill "class warfare" on the middle class is a perfect example

I would also say in grassroots mobilization & speaking to people directly. Democrats need to engage their constituents.

Sanders is on a 3-day, four city "Protecting Working Families" tour with MoveOn.org and the "Not One Penny" coalition. "This legislation goes well beyond taxes," Sanders wrote in an email that was sent to supporters last Monday. "Mark my words. If passed, the Republicans will then rediscover the 'deficit crisis,' and push aggressively for massive cuts in Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, education — higher education in particular — nutrition, affordable housing and more." "That is why I am going on the road this week to talk directly to working people," Sanders added.

But he stressed that the GOP won’t get away with it. While the system “thrives on” people falling asleep, he said, that’s the opposite of what is happening.  “We are winning the fight for the vision of the future of America,” he said, drawing applause. “Our vision, your vision, is gaining momentum all across this country.” “We are the vast majority of the American people,” he said. “Their ideas have very little support. So what our job is is to bring people together. Don’t let them divide us up by the color of our skin or where we were born or our religion. Let us stand together. Let us think big. Let us transform this country.”

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2017/12/02/bernie-sanders-takes-his-protecting-working-families-tour-road

He has already made this into a flight to protect SS, Medicare, Medicaid, Education programs which are all incredibly popular among Swing, conservative leaning voters as well.

I hope Warren, Booker, Harris, Merkley all go this route when also blasting the tax plan. Democrats need a massive grassroots mobilization to stop huge cuts to SS, Medicare & Medicaid.

[Sestak]

Well, looks like we had our first debate of the midterms today:

https://mobile.twitter.com/RosenforNevada/status/937173454742200320

[Kamala]

Well, looks like we had our first debate of the midterms today:

https://mobile.twitter.com/RosenforNevada/status/937173454742200320

https://twitter.com/deanheller/status/937173955726622720

This is verbatim a Greedo comeback.

[Hindsight was 2020]

Well, looks like we had our first debate of the midterms today:

https://mobile.twitter.com/RosenforNevada/status/937173454742200320

https://twitter.com/deanheller/status/937173955726622720

This is verbatim a Greedo comeback.

Sidenote is it wrong to read into the fact that not only does Rosen's comments have a lot more like then Heller's but the first comment in Heller's reply saying "your gone in 2018" also has more likes?

[OSR stands with Israel]

You know the reason GOP kept the individual rates temporary is that it allows them to pass it with 50 votes , and then even when the Democrats win there is no way Dems will let them expire , so they basically made the tax reform permanent with just 50 votes.