What happened to this forum?

[bejkuy]

I have been a occasional reader of the postings of this forum for the last 4 years or so. 

Being that I have time-consuming priorities (husband, father of 4 children under 7, homeschooling dad "gasp", elder in my church (double gasp), and small business owner) I am not able to post as often a I would like to, but typically check the forum once a week or so, enough to get a feel for the content of the site.

What I have noticed, especially today, is the gradual degradation of this site. 

Once upon a time this (as a general rule) site boasted the most intelligent, reasoned, and most of all respectful dialogue on the web.  Posters such as Markdel  and  others offered deep insight and perspective. 

I can honestly say I learned a lot, from both right and left leaning posters.


Furthermore there seemed to be a healthy balance of posters from the various political persuasions.  The sight seemed to be somewhat representative of the populace at large.  This is obviously not true today.
 
I hadn't been on the sight for 3 weeks or so (the big flood really shook things up for us here in Washington, especially Lewis county where I live) and came back this evening to find thread after thread with disparaging comments about Christians, especially conservative Christians or for that manner anyone with a more traditional set of values.

It is really to bad we can't spar at a higher level. 

The problem I see is that as trolls have invaded, it is driven out those more enlightened individuals who brought such a distint quality to this forum.

Is there any way things could go back to the old ways.

[Alcon]

Glad to hear you're all right.  You came in to my thoughts during the floods...I hope you and yours stayed dry. 

I wish I could retort much of what you said, but...I can't.  Although I think there's always been a bit of trollish sparring, even back in Good Old Days.

[bgwah]

Markdel was not insightful, enlightened, or intelligent. He was a dumb troll.

With that said, welcome back, I guess...

[Keystone Phil]

This great forum has gone down the tubes quite a bit. It really is a shame. I thought I was finished here but then I got bored one day and made a return. Before I returned, though, I asked a few people what the forum was like these days and they informed me of how the quality of the posters and their commentary was absolutely awful. We need some of the old posters back.

[Padfoot]

I'm a relatively new forumite so I can't attest to the supposed civility of the "good old days" but I what I can say is that I've seen a marked increase in trolling in the past 2 months as compared to when I first joined about a year ago and it has come from all angles of the political spectrum not just the left attacking the right.  I think part of it has to do with the election heating up and people getting riled up about their candidates and their beliefs.  In a similar vein I've noticed some new posters around which I'm sure is also related to the election.  I also think its hard to keep intelligent posters on the forum when you have people like BRTD going around espousing the joys of being a troll.

That being said, I think there are still enough level headed forumites around to have intelligent discussions with even if we are occasionally interrupted by rude comments.  But I also don't think that the poorly mannered forumites among us are going to be leaving anytime soon.  They gain too much pleasure from seeing the rest of us squirm.  The only way to really get rid of them is to ignore them but I'll be the first to admit its hard to carry on a conversation about religious freedom when you've got Richard Dawkins and Pat Robertson screaming at each other in the background.  We just have to do our best to screen out the garbage and only engage ourselves with people who are willing to respect the opinions of others even when they disagree.

[CultureKing]

welcome back. Yes the forums do tilt a bit to the left, but oh well, we can't make it perfectly balanced.
Also its good to hear that you are all right after the floods, I hope you fared well during that time. It truly is sad to see all the damage that was done.

[Cubby]

I agree that the quality of posting has gone down since this site was started. But part of the problem may be that from your description, you don't sound like the average forumite. The large majority of us are under 25. We have a different set of values than homeschoolers, BushOklahoma and a couple others excepted. (By "church elder" i assume you mean Mormon, but I could be wrong). So its more of a generational divide than a troll/immaturity issue.

I wasn't on here when MarkDel posted but I did read some of his posts and he was unpleasant and an extreme right winger. There will always be posters who others find offensive. I hope you find this forum a better place than that psych ward known as freerepublic.com

On an unrelated note, Lewis County is the most Republican county in Washington west of the Cascades. Thats all I know about it.

[ottermax]

I hope you are okay and doing well. I cannot truly empathize with you on the floods, but I did see the pictures and I felt the rains here in Issaquah too. I was completely shocked at the amount of water and devastation in Lewis County.

I must agree with you on the forum. I joined because I thought I would be able to discuss in an informal, but civilized manner. Many of the posts have become dreadfully banal and ludicrous. I look at the various topics, and rarely do I find something I want to talk about because the topics have become ridiculous, particularly with the election this year. I really wish people would try to be more thoughtful in their discussion, but I believe every one must have their freedom to speak their mind (responsibly is the key).

I also feel that the forum has a strong leftward tilt, and I guess I don't really help balance it, but I try to look at the topics with a neutral standpoint, and then add my input based on my knowledge, experience, and the other opinions of the posts. We need more balance in this forum politically; I sense that being on the right-wing can feel alienating.

Thank you for bringing this up. It really needs to be talked over.

[Nym90]

I agree that the overall level of discourse and quality has gone down, all things considered, although the replacement of right wing hacks with left wing hacks really has nothing to do with it.

I think more than anything it's just the signal-to-noise ratio. There are just as many if not more good posts than there ever were before, but it's harder to wade through the bad ones to find them.

[dead0man]

Maybe if we somehow discouraged the fluff?  Started killing/culling threads that are retreads or useless maybe?

[Gabu]

Maybe if we somehow discouraged the fluff?  Started killing/culling threads that are retreads or useless maybe?

I've long said Dave and the mods needs to clamp down on stupid threads and blatant inflammatory remarks, but oh no, then the usual suspects would be screaming bloody murder.

[dead0man]

Funny!  And when they start doing it, they should ban* the first person to cry "Freedom of Speach".


(Because, as we all know, this is technically private property and the owners of that property have the right to shut up anybody they want at anytime they want for any reason they want.  Your Freedom of Speach would not be infringed upon if you were banned in here for any reason.  You would still have the right to start your own message board and/or website and say any damn fool thing you want.)




*I don't really think somebody should be banned for doing that.

[opebo]

Maybe if we somehow discouraged the fluff?  Started killing/culling threads that are retreads or useless maybe?

I've long said Dave and the mods needs to clamp down on stupid threads and blatant inflammatory remarks, but oh no, then the usual suspects would be screaming bloody murder.

Censorship does not increase the 'quality' of speech, Gabu, as much as you may love to shut up those with whom you disagree.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Maybe if we somehow discouraged the fluff?  Started killing/culling threads that are retreads or useless maybe?

I've long said Dave and the mods needs to clamp down on stupid threads and blatant inflammatory remarks, but oh no, then the usual suspects would be screaming bloody murder.

Censorship does not increase the 'quality' of speech, Gabu, as much as you may love to shut up those with whom you disagree.

Well said!

[afleitch]

I hadn't been on the sight for 3 weeks or so (the big flood really shook things up for us here in Washington, especially Lewis county where I live) and came back this evening to find thread after thread with disparaging comments about Christians, especially conservative Christians or for that manner anyone with a more traditional set of values.

On a personal note I tend to make 'disparaging' comments about conservative Christianity, not Christians but I know that some do and it destracts from what is being argued. At the end of the day, on a forum like this all ideology should be debated regardless of whether or not a deity in part of that ideology. I don't think there is a need to personally attack those who adhere to an ideology (without due cause) but I wouldn't condsider people voicing a negative opinion about 'ologies' or 'isms' as a decline. It is healthy.

[MODU]

I think it is simply a case of topic-fatigue.  Most of the people that have been here for years find themselves saying the same thing over and over that they stop replying.  This silence leaves a vacuum for other voices to dominate the discussion, leading to trolling and rants.  In addition to the fatigue, you start seeing silly threads pop-up that have no real value, simply because someone feels the need to inject something "new."  Give it time.  There will be more coming as the election cycle heats up and the new President/Congress attempts to "change" things yet again.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Give it time.  There will be more coming as the election cycle heats up and the new President/Congress attempts to "change" things yet again.

Agreed.  I have read some very good postings in the 2008 U.S. Presidential Election section.   Thinks like Bush-bashing are getting tiresome, no one wants to beat the Iraq horse any further dead than he already is etc..

"CHANGE" is the buzzword for 2008 and you'll see it here too, and when a new administration comes in 2009 all sections of the forum should be quite refreshed.

[bullmoose88]

I'll preface this by saying, I don't intend to be harsh, insulting, or mean in anyway, although I can understand if one reading this may take it as such.  [Quote edited/abridged so that I can quickly present the comments I disagree with]

Once upon a time this (as a general rule) site boasted the most intelligent, reasoned, and most of all respectful dialogue on the web.  Posters such as Markdel  and  others offered deep insight and perspective.

Furthermore there seemed to be a healthy balance of posters from the various political persuasions.  The sight seemed to be somewhat representative of the populace at large.  This is obviously not true today.

I'll first point out that your view, just as mine is, is skewed by your background, political, economic, religious etc...Going back to the days of Markdel, since you're familiar with him as compared to now, yes...there has been a shift on the boards...but instead of saying the boards have moved away from national opinion, both in aggregate and in certain ideological groupings, I'd say the board has merely moved along with it.

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I'd postulate that the concepts of traditionalism, relgious and otherwise, are slowly losing in the national market place of ideas (obviously this does not necessarily mean the country is becoming less Christian or less religious, but only that the country, or a large portion of it is continuing to look at the more traditional elements with increased skepticism.)

I'd suggest that the same shift has occured on the boards, although the point of origination might be different considering the group that posts on the boards is from a specific demographic group of the country as a whole.

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I personally take some offense to this comment.  Not direct offense of course, but because of the fact that after seeing a government driven by the traditionalist element in this country push the agenda of fear and divisiveness upon the country I feel that the criticism of those elements must be pretty harsh.

Sometimes I need to remind myself that not all traditionalists were on board with what the group as a whole wants, or does, however for one to expect that after what has happened the last 7 years, at least, in this nation due in large part to traditionalists and their allies, for opponents to contain their anger or turn the other cheek and continue to debate as though the field of intellectual battle had never changed is ludicrous.

We're just one part of the marketplace of ideas, perhaps a very insignificiant one, but one part nonetheless.  All ideas are challenged, some more so and to a nastier degree than others.

Perhaps traditionalists get a raw deal; however, given the influence they have over the current agenda and how that agenda has been carried out, perhaps they deserve a higher level of scrutiny (which often contains distasteful albeit not untrue criticism).

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The names change, but in my opinion, the general quality remains the same (within a certain devation)

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Given what has happened in this country, it is too late for that.

[JSojourner]

I hadn't been on the sight for 3 weeks or so (the big flood really shook things up for us here in Washington, especially Lewis county where I live) and came back this evening to find thread after thread with disparaging comments about Christians, especially conservative Christians or for that manner anyone with a more traditional set of values.

On a personal note I tend to make 'disparaging' comments about conservative Christianity, not Christians but I know that some do and it destracts from what is being argued. At the end of the day, on a forum like this all ideology should be debated regardless of whether or not a deity in part of that ideology. I don't think there is a need to personally attack those who adhere to an ideology (without due cause) but I wouldn't condsider people voicing a negative opinion about 'ologies' or 'isms' as a decline. It is healthy.

Well said.

And disparaging remarks about LEADERS and people in power are different than ad hominem personal attacks on other board members.

For example, if someone says Ted Kennedy is a crazed, communist-leaning America-hater -- I may disagree with it, even disprove it.  But it's not the same as calling ME that.  Or some other forumite.

If I call James Dobson or Mike Huckabee a dangerous theocrat, it's different than saying Keystone Phil or AH Duke are.  People in power, in the public spotlight, with access to media and millions of supporters are just a different kettle of fish.  For one thing, they SOUGHT the spotlight.  So they are fair game.  Again, people can challenge such assertions...and they should.  But let's not confuse attacks on James Dobson or Hillary Clinton with attacks on conservative or liberal denizens of the forum

Now, if you want to talk about personal insults on the boards -- perhaps something can be done about that.  I honestly don't know.  And if I engage in PERSONAL insults, I hope people will let me know.  I will do my best to apologize and quit.

[Sam Spade]

Everything ebbs and flows with the passage of time.  Much like this board. 

Sure, I have negative things to say about the way things are from time to time, but that passes, and well, you can spot the hacks a mile away and toy with them at your will.

The one advantage to this board over many, many others is that in general the hacks don't run the forum and certainly don't moderate the forum for the most part (as much as they want to).

One other thing:  "Traditionalism" or whatever you defined there will come back into style soon enough, bullmoose.  Probably sooner than you want it to, especially if the economy doesn't fare so well.  Everything that is old becomes new again, eventually.  That is the lesson of life...

[Jake]

1. You have a lot of idiots who really don't understand much about politics and even less about policy.

2. Lots of people here who like to broad brush people using religion and ideology. Most fit into the above category of idiots.

[Sam Spade]

1. You have a lot of idiots who really don't understand much about politics and even less about policy.

2. Lots of people here who like to broad brush people using religion and ideology. Most fit into the above category of idiots.

I like your sig, theocrat.

[bgwah]

Everything ebbs and flows with the passage of time.  Much like this board. 

Sure, I have negative things to say about the way things are from time to time, but that passes, and well, you can spot the hacks a mile away and toy with them at your will.

The one advantage to this board over many, many others is that in general the hacks don't run the forum and certainly don't moderate the forum for the most part (as much as they want to).

One other thing:  "Traditionalism" or whatever you defined there will come back into style soon enough, bullmoose.  Probably sooner than you want it to, especially if the economy doesn't fare so well.  Everything that is old becomes new again, eventually.  That is the lesson of life...

I hope Dave eventually realizes what a huge slap in the face it is to anyone who has ever donated money or data to this website (both in my case) to have you as a moderator.

[Bono]

Everything ebbs and flows with the passage of time.  Much like this board. 

Sure, I have negative things to say about the way things are from time to time, but that passes, and well, you can spot the hacks a mile away and toy with them at your will.

The one advantage to this board over many, many others is that in general the hacks don't run the forum and certainly don't moderate the forum for the most part (as much as they want to).

One other thing:  "Traditionalism" or whatever you defined there will come back into style soon enough, bullmoose.  Probably sooner than you want it to, especially if the economy doesn't fare so well.  Everything that is old becomes new again, eventually.  That is the lesson of life...

I hope Dave eventually realizes what a huge slap in the face it is to anyone who has ever donated money or data to this website (both in my case) to have you as a moderator.

I hope Dave eventually realizes what a huge slap in the face it is to anyone who has ever donated money or data to this website (both in my case) to have you as a member.

[Bono]

Everything ebbs and flows with the passage of time.  Much like this board. 

Sure, I have negative things to say about the way things are from time to time, but that passes, and well, you can spot the hacks a mile away and toy with them at your will.

The one advantage to this board over many, many others is that in general the hacks don't run the forum and certainly don't moderate the forum for the most part (as much as they want to).

Are you kidding? Trolls run the forum because no one stands up to them and they're allowed to bully people unchecked.