Dispelling the notion that Trump is Hitler/Mussolini 2.0

[rob in cal]

   There is much to find offensive/creepy/weird etc about Donald Trump, and this post is not meant to explain or justify him for that.  But, as someone who studies a fair amount (my wife would say way too much) about the inter-war period in Europe, I'd like to lend my two cents to the debate about whether the Donald is Hitler/Mussolini 2.0
   Of course we are talking about two historical figures both dead for 70 years from different counties than the US so obviously one can't exactly compare the Donald's politics with theirs.  However, there are a few issues where one can make some comparisons or contrasts, so lets give it a go.
   First off, the elephant in the room, anti-Semitism, or more accurately, anti-Jewishness. This was obviously a driving motive behind a huge plank of the Nazi (not Italian fascist movement however) ideology.  Where does the Donald come down on the issue.  Well, this being the Donald its hard to tell exactly but we know he claims to be the most pro-Israel candidate out there, and perhaps as a function of this has basically said all Islam is against us, which would seem to indicate a pro-Israel attitude.  Then there is the intriguing fact that not one, but two of his kids have married Jews, and his oldest daughter Ivanka has converted to Judaism.  For the next American fuhrer, the Donald is remarkably ecumenical.

   Second, feelings about the Slavs.  Another central idea of Nazism was dominating/taking over Eastern Europe and, as an end goal, a big chunk of cis-Ural Russia, to create living space for the German people.  Hitler showed some flexibility toward some Slavic countries, (there were Croatian and Slovakian units fighting alongside the Germans on the eastern Front) but basically he wanted them at best to have subordinate puppet states under German domination.  Concerning the Czechs he famously said that they would be assimilated and or expelled over the next hundreds or years.  He also seemed to relish the idea of a war starting over Czechoslovakia in 1938.
In sum, he had disdain for Slavs in general and felt that Germans should dominate their lands, if not worse.  Where does the Donald come down on this issue.  Well its 2016 in the US, not central Europe in 1938 so these issues aren't really relevant, but not one, but two of his three wives have been lovely Slavic women, with Ivana being a Czech to make matters even more ironic.  I don't
think the real Fuhrer would approve of the Donalds choice in spouses.

Third, the Russian issue.  Basically the Nazi vision was that Germany should conquer a huge chunk of western Russia, killing or expelling the leadership class and possibly allowing a Russian state on the other side of the Urals. Joseph Stalin, outside of the marriage of convenience of the Hitler Stalin pact of 1939-1941, was Hitler's top enemy.  The Donald, OTOH, seems to have warm feelings toward Putin, thereby reversing a top Nazi era policy.  This too, represented a big part of Nazi ideology, and once again the Donald is not following through.

How about the intriguing issue of birth control, which ties into Nazi demography fears and hopes.  Basically the Nazi regime actually did tolerate it up until 1940 or so, and even after that did in fact allow the sale of condoms. Goebbels mentions this in his diary, that Himmler pushed for a  ban on it in 1940 I believe due to the losses in wartime requiring a higher birth rate. Goebbels wasnt' happy about it, due to morale concerns.  Once the Hitler regime took power, it did crackdown on doctors providing abortions, and a big plank of the movement was to increase the German birthrate, in which the regime was somewhat successful.  The Donald on this issue? Well, we do know for one thing that he's the only GOP candidate for President who on the debate stage talks fondly of planned parenthood.  The Donald fails the fuhrer test again.

  Enough of history, how would a modern day American fascist rule. Well, I would argue that one key component of fascism was expansionism, Lebensraum for Germany, and for Italy the Meditteranean as Mare Nostrum (our sea).  I could see a true American fascist talking about the union of the US and Canada, and turning the Caribbean into an American lake, with the US running things, but no-non-whites allowed to live in the US-Canadian living space.  I would imagine an American fascist viewing the whole western hemisphere as part of the US lebensraum, or at least an area that should be under total US domination.  I don't see the Donald talking about any of this.
   An American fascist would likely support a US military build-up which the Donald and many other US politicians support, but they'd also probably want a draft, to instill military values into American men, and the Donald fails on this one.
   The Donald envisions a re-industrialized America, and to hearken back to our historical comparisons Hitler fantasized about a vibrant German peasantry and if anything a smaller industrial population, as he viewed a healthy peasantry as the bedrock of the nation, and was suspicious of urban populations with their cosmopolitanism and smaller families.
    On immigration an American fascist would want no non-white immigration, and while the Donald does talk about the wall, he also talks about nice big gates in the wall, and talks about his support for legal immigration, with no discussion about going back to the pre-1965 European centric immigration law.  He at some points talks about less legal immigration, but then other times seems to backslide on the issue, so while he's certainly less pro high immigration than Clinton, Sanders on those on the left, its hard to say if he's even on Jeff Session or Steve Kings level in terms of supporting much less legal immigration.
   I would say in terms of personal life there does seem to be a comparison that somewhat fits between the Donald and maybe Mussolini ( a substantial appetite for affairs with women) and if there is a comparison with lifestyles Goring would probably fit the Donald comparison much more than Hitler.  I think the Donald would find Hitler a low energy loser. Imagine the Donald interviewing Hitler in 1914, when Hitler was a marginally employed draft dodger from the Austro-Hungarian army just scraping by in Munich. He'd probably say, get off my show, your fired, your a loser and will never amount to anything.
   Anyway, these are just some random thoughts that occur when I ponder the question of Trump= Hitler, yes or no?  To paraphrase Lloyd Bentsen, " Donald, I've studied a lot about Hitler, I 've seen his speeches, I know people who lived under Hitler, even two groomsmen at my wedding lost relatives because of him, and Donald, your no Adolf Hitler."

[Mr. Reactionary]

Let's dispel with this fiction that Donald Trump does not resemble an authoritarian ... 

[Blue3]

Trump is not a 1930's/1940's German fascist, that's true.

Trump is not a 1930's/1940's Italian fascist, that's true.


But he is a 2010's American fascist. That's true.

[Lexii, harbinger of chaos and sexual anarchy]

He's  closer to the modern European "moderate" far right and Fico

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

The anti-Semetism specifically isn't the point. It's finding a minority group, and whipping up anger at them while using them as a scapegoat.

With the Slavs, again, the specific ethnicity isn't the point. (Although Donald does seem to have something for Eastern Europeans...) Like Hitler, Donald shows disdain for other nearby but "not us" ethnic groups. And yes, he displays delight verging on glee at the prospect of "putting them in their place". He's also openly advocated "taking the oil" of Islamic groups fighting in Syria, using the US military to do so.

Like the Nazi's, Trump is working hard to create an 'in-group' and an 'out-group', us vs. them, both domestically and internationally.

One characteristic of fascism is the desire to return the nation to a better bygone age. (That may never have existed.) While their visions of what that looks like may differ, it's absolutely something that Donald is doing.

No, Trump isn't a Mussolini or Hitler clone. History doesn't repeat, it rhymes. Donald's greatest departure from actual, academically-defined facism is that he 's not calling for the overthrow of the existing government and its institutions. At least not yet.
 

[tonyreyes89]

He reminds me of Andrew Jackson lol

[Helsinkian]

One characteristic of fascism is the desire to return the nation to a better bygone age. (That may never have existed.)

Nostalgia about the idealized past ('50s, '80s etc.) is a characteristic of normal, mainstream conservatism as well.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Everyone is probably sick of me repeating this, but Donald Trump is literally the American Silvio Berlusconi. The parallels are unreal.

I used to think so but, to his credit, Berlusconi never got quite as nasty in terms of xenophobia and racism. Mostly because he had the Lega do it for him, but still.

[White Trash]

He reminds me of Andrew Jackson lol

[rob in cal]

  Yes, I like the Berlusconi parallel as well. And yes, the Donald hasn't proposed a single structural change to the US constitution or democracy.  That, it strikes me is yet another fundamental aspect of making one a fascist in whichever century, the destruction of a constitutional democracy.   Ironically, IIRC the Italian post-fascists have called at one time or another for the direct election of the Presidency.  It would be funny if the Donald joined the direct election movement in the US.  I could see him calling the electoral college a bunch of low energy losers.

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

maybe the person who rambles about "ethnic de-germanisation" isn't the right person to make this thread

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

  Yes, I like the Berlusconi parallel as well. And yes, the Donald hasn't proposed a single structural change to the US constitution or democracy.  That, it strikes me is yet another fundamental aspect of making one a fascist in whichever century, the destruction of a constitutional democracy.   Ironically, IIRC the Italian post-fascists have called at one time or another for the direct election of the Presidency.  It would be funny if the Donald joined the direct election movement in the US.  I could see him calling the electoral college a bunch of low energy losers.

Given Trump and his supporters open disdain for the law or party process (except when its to their benefit, of course), I've got a sneaking suspicion that Donald had remained quiet about any desire to restructure government as a deliberate choice. He wouldn't want to open himself up to insurrection charges or anything like that. I wouldn't bet that we wouldn't see a Trump Administration ignoring laws it didn't like.

[Mr. Reactionary]

  Yes, I like the Berlusconi parallel as well. And yes, the Donald hasn't proposed a single structural change to the US constitution ... 

Suspending Free Exercise of Religion under the 1st Amendment [Muslim ban]
Targeting Free Speech under the 1st Amendment [Libel Laws]
Expanding warrantless spying in violation of the 4th Amendment [Patriot Act restoration]
Embracing Torture banned by the 8th Amendment
Ignoring the Supremacy Clause in regards to ratified treaties [Murdering children of terrorists]
Unilaterally suspending habeas corpus [Gitmo inmates]

These are changes that restructure power in the hands of government in situations where the government currently has none.

[Nichlemn]

I think it's highly unlikely that Trump would bring about a fascist America. But as unlikely at is, it's still a lot higher than any other candidate in living memory. More subtly, he could push America in an authoritarian direction that might not fully manifest itself until a future leader makes use of Trump's groundwork.

[rob in cal]

    By structural change I'm thinking a fascist might want things like abolition of one house of congress, national plebiscites where the President/leader puts on the ballot questions expected to get a strong "yes" vote, statutory limits on supreme court power, merging US states into regions with a directly appointed leader, things of that nature.
   Oh, concerning my rambling about "ethnic de-germanization" is it not the case that in many urban areas, especially in the former West Germany, a very high number, in some cases approaching a majority, of children in schools have one or more parents or grandparents from a so-called "migration background"? I realize some are Volksdeutsche with some German roots, but if I am incorrect about the overall long-term trend I'd be interested to know.

[Meclazine for Israel]

What about the global pagaent where a sexually attractive woman from each country comes to a private indoor arena, and parades her voluptuous curves in a colourful swimsuit and then gets asked a question to which the answer is 'world peace'.

Oh wait. Hitler never had that.

[Middle-aged Europe]

   Oh, concerning my rambling about "ethnic de-germanization" is it not the case that in many urban areas, especially in the former West Germany, a very high number, in some cases approaching a majority, of children in schools have one or more parents or grandparents from a so-called "migration background"? I realize some are Volksdeutsche with some German roots, but if I am incorrect about the overall long-term trend I'd be interested to know.

Even worse, I do have co-workers and even friends who have "one or more parents or grandparents from a so-called "migration background"". I'm relatively positive they don't make up a majority of my co-workers/friends, but then again I do not tend to count them.

But if they were in the majority, this would be pretty bad, right? So, my question for you rob in cal is the following: What percentage of friends who do not belong to the master race would still be acceptable? 20%? 30%? 40%? Give me a number here.

[SPQR]

Everyone is probably sick of me repeating this, but Donald Trump is literally the American Silvio Berlusconi. The parallels are unreal.

Except Trump didn't jump into politics just to save his business.
Or did he?

[rob in cal]

  Old Europe, I wasn't arguing either for against the ethnic transformations going on in Germany, or what level would be good or bad.  I was merely saying it is happening to a certain extent.  I would say a "good" level is one at which new immigrants do well in their new country and integrate successfully and become a positive addition to the new country.

[ProudModerate2]

[rob in cal]

Proudmoderate, that would make a vivid campaign poster.  BTW, the Donald would have to discuss possible riots if he doesn't get the nomination after having a big delegate lead on the day we are trying to have a rational discussion about him.

[°Leprechaun]

Hitler and Mussolini didn't have the ability to use nuclear weapons, so Trump could be worse.

I don't think Trump is Hitler or Mussolini. I don't believe in reincarnation. Although it is interesting that he was born 13 1/2 months after they both died.

[°Leprechaun]

Trump is a bad dude who says things that are easily proven false.
He is similar to Hitler in his campaigning style. People who voted for Hitler didn't realize
how bad he would be.
Technically Trump may not be as bad as Hitler, but he is a bad dude; that should be reason enough
not to vote for him. No, I have no respect for the "lesser of two evils" argument. None whatsoever.
I am sure that many people who voted for Hitler used that same specious argument.

[°Leprechaun]

For the record:

http://www.snopes.com/make-germany-great-again/#!

"..., while Hitler may have not used this exact phrase, making Germany great again was a dominant theme in Nazi propaganda.  The mood in 1930s Germany was dark; the country had been hit especially hard by a global economic recession, and was still stinging from a humiliating defeat during the first World War fifteen years before.  Adolf Hitler's main message was one of redemption for the country."

and of course, "Seig Heil" means "Hail Victory" similar to "We're gonna win and win"