Opinion of the proposed mosque near Ground Zero

[Lunar]

I don't think that turning this into a Holocaust thread is a very good idea

A thread on a needlessly controversial project diverting to a needlessly controversial topic?  Seems appropriate. 

[??????????]

Catholics had little to do with the holocaust.

Actually Catholics had lots to do with the Haulocaust.  Its often not talked about because it makes Christians feel uncomfortable.  Jewish hatred didn't engender from Hitler, it came from prominent catholic priests and protestant leaders like Martin Luther and Thomas Aquinas as well as many Popes.  Christians in Austria, Italy and Germany had already believed that the Jews were inferior, which stemmed from the Christian texts, which imply that the Jews killed Jesus.  

The Romans didn't want to crucify Jesus. As a matter of fact they thought he was fairly innocent. The Jewish people in the crowd wanted Barabas <sp?> freed and Jesus crucified. So technically they are correct in saying the Jews killed Jesus.

[phk]

Any NYers want to shed a light on this?

[quote]

More than 50% of New York City voters oppose a plan by a Muslim group to build a mosque and cultural center just blocks away from Ground Zero, according to a poll released Thursday by Quinnipiac University.

“New York enjoys a reputation as one of the most tolerant places in America, but…opponents suggest that the mosque would dishonor the memory of the [9/11] attack’s victims,” said Maurice Carroll, the director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute.

According to the poll, 52% of New Yorkers oppose the plan to build the mosque and cultural center, known as the Cordoba House, compared to 31% who are in favor of it and 17% who are undecided.

The poll of more than 1,000 registered voters across the city found that support for the $100 million project appeared to be strongest in Manhattan, where 46% of poll respondents said they were in favor of it, compared to 36% who said they were opposed.

Elsewhere across the five boroughs, the project appears to face staunch opposition, especially in Staten Island and Brooklyn, where as The Journal’s Sumathi Reddy reports, local chapters of the Muslim American Society want to build mosques in Sheepshead Bay and Midland Beach.

In Staten Island 73% of respondents said they were against the Cordoba House proposal, compared to 14% who said they supported it. In Brooklyn and the Bronx, 57% of respondents said they opposed the mosque and cultural center, while in Queens opposition stood at 52%.

The poll found that whites, Hispanics, Jews and Catholics appeared to be more likely to be opposed to bringing the mosque and cultural center near Ground Zero. Blacks and protestants– while still largely against the plan–revealed more divided opinions, the poll reported.

Despite the opposition, 44% of New Yorkers said they had a generally favorable opinion of Islam, compared to 28% who have an unfavorable view of the religion and 28% who didn’t know. A majority of those indicating favorable opinions tended to support the plan for Cordoba House, the poll reported, while those with an unfavorable opinion of Islam were almost unanimously against it.

[Magic 8-Ball]

If they legally acquired the land and filed the proper paperwork, they have every right to build their center.  That the majority of New Yorkers disapprove of it affects my opinion not a whit.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Any NYers want to shed a light on this?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well Staten Island is the whitest borough, consisting predominantly of Italian and Irish Catholics, along with Germans, Poles, Russians, Jews, Hispanics...exactly the sort of people most strongly against the mosque. I don't think there's much sympathy for Islam among members of the black community here either.

There are areas like that all across the city, although you can see they get somewhat diluted in the other boroughs.

[Eraserhead]

The sooner we all accept that religion is a tool used to control people and move past it as a society, the better off we'll all be. Until then, let people build their houses of lunacy if they must.

As for what rocket posted, look at the demographics of each of the boroughs. The poll results don't surprise me in the least.

[k-onmmunist]

Tbh, I would have a problem with any religious building being built near it. It's not like Islam is the only religion which has killed people before.

[angus]

It's not like Islam is the only religion which has killed people before.

Religions don't kill people.  People kill people.

And rats.  And fires.  And bacteria and stuff like that.  Maybe the hallucinogenic peyote button you ate in order to get a better vision of the gods was an overdose, causing brain aneurysm or acute myocardial infarction.  Maybe that kills you.  But it isn't the religion itself that kills you.

[Beet]

It's not like Islam is the only religion which has killed people before.

Religions don't kill people.  People kill people.

And rats.  And fires.  And bacteria and stuff like that.  Maybe the hallucinogenic peyote button you ate in order to get a better vision of the gods was an overdose, causing brain aneurysm or acute myocardial infarction.  Maybe that kills you.  But it isn't the religion itself that kills you.

I didn't think you were one to fall for cheap slogans, angus, even effective ones. Sure, religion doesn't kill people, but that doesn't mean that people haven't been killed that would not have been killed had it not been for this or that religion. Nor that some people lived that would not have lived had it been for this or that religion. Human behavior is subject to all sorts of variables, and just because it's very difficult for social science to parse them out (especially for something as ill-defined and ubiquitous as Islam), it does not mean it has no effect.

[Verily]

Are there any synagogues in the Financial District area?  I can't remember ever seeing one.

A quick Google Maps search turns up one on Beekman between William and Gold and another on Broadway between Maiden and Liberty (only a block from the WTC). There's also one in Battery Park City.

The nearest mosque, by the way, is at the corner of Allen and Stanton in the LES just beyond Chinatown.

[angus]

It's not like Islam is the only religion which has killed people before.

Religions don't kill people.  People kill people.

And rats.  And fires.  And bacteria and stuff like that.  Maybe the hallucinogenic peyote button you ate in order to get a better vision of the gods was an overdose, causing brain aneurysm or acute myocardial infarction.  Maybe that kills you.  But it isn't the religion itself that kills you.

I didn't think you were one to fall for cheap slogans, angus, even effective ones. Sure, religion doesn't kill people, but that doesn't mean that people haven't been killed that would not have been killed had it not been for this or that religion. Nor that some people lived that would not have lived had it been for this or that religion. Human behavior is subject to all sorts of variables, and just because it's very difficult for social science to parse them out (especially for something as ill-defined and ubiquitous as Islam), it does not mean it has no effect.

I love cheap slogans.  Most people sing love songs in the showers.  I sing the Doublemint jingle and Oscar Meyer and other commercial lyrics.

Yeah, of course folks have been killed in the name of religion.  I just read La Malinche by Laura Esquivel.  I'd always studied her from the point of view of western historians, or from the point of view of Diego Rivera or other Mexican muralists.  But Esquivel writes from Malina's point of view.  Anyway, the history I already knew:  of course it was easy for Cortez to enlist the aid of the huastecs and zapotecs and others to overthrow Moctezuma and capture Tenochtitlán.  After a three or four generations of watching your cousins and brothers and father and grandfather having their still-beating hearts cut out in order to appease Lord Quetzalcoatl's thirst, you're ready for some payback.

Still, I just found the phrase "Islam isn't the only religion which has killed people" awkward.

And you didn't even like my little twist on the NRA slogan?  I thought it was rather clever.

[afleitch]

Doesn't bother me. It's just a building.

[Lunar]

Are there any synagogues in the Financial District area?  I can't remember ever seeing one.

A quick Google Maps search turns up one on Beekman between William and Gold and another on Broadway between Maiden and Liberty (only a block from the WTC). There's also one in Battery Park City.

The nearest mosque, by the way, is at the corner of Allen and Stanton in the LES just beyond Chinatown.

I walk by Allen & Stanton twice a day, every day, I can't remember ever seeing a mosque there.

[patrick1]

Any NYers want to shed a light on this?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well Staten Island is the whitest borough, consisting predominantly of Italian and Irish Catholics, along with Germans, Poles, Russians, Jews, Hispanics...exactly the sort of people most strongly against the mosque. I don't think there's much sympathy for Islam among members of the black community here either.

There are areas like that all across the city, although you can see they get somewhat diluted in the other boroughs.

Many blue collar folks are not big on nuance.  Muslim people attacked us on 9/11 and they are the enemy. I fight with my own parents because they think Cat Stevens or other converts are traitors and terrorist supporters.

[patrick1]

Are there any synagogues in the Financial District area?  I can't remember ever seeing one.

A quick Google Maps search turns up one on Beekman between William and Gold and another on Broadway between Maiden and Liberty (only a block from the WTC). There's also one in Battery Park City.

The nearest mosque, by the way, is at the corner of Allen and Stanton in the LES just beyond Chinatown.

I walk by Allen & Stanton twice a day, every day, I can't remember ever seeing a mosque there.

Yep, most mosques are pretty plain and dont particularly announce themselves.  Every once and a while I see them praying in an alley around White Street.

[angus]

Yep, most mosques are pretty plain and dont particularly announce themselves.

...as long as you ignore the minarets, moorish arches, green banner with arabic script, and the little balcony on the second floor that they always seem to tack on when they open them up in strip malls.

I always think, "Hmmm.  That's either a place to get some kick-ass lamb kabobs and maybe a decent belly-dance show, or it's a place to pray, men only.  If only I could read arabic I'd know for sure.  I guess I'll look for a pile of shoes outside the door.  That should should tell me which it is."

[Torie]

The space should be rented or sold to the highest bidder. The end.

[patrick1]

Yep, most mosques are pretty plain and dont particularly announce themselves.

...as long as you ignore the minarets, moorish arches, green banner with arabic script, and the little balcony on the second floor that they always seem to tack on when they open them up in strip malls.

I always think, "Hmmm.  That's either a place to get some kick-ass lamb kabobs and maybe a decent belly-dance show, or it's a place to pray, men only.  If only I could read arabic I'd know for sure.  I guess I'll look for a pile of shoes outside the door, the presence or absence of which should tell me which."

Most mosques are rented out spaces and not specifically built structures.

[patrick1]

Yep, most mosques are pretty plain and dont particularly announce themselves.

...as long as you ignore the minarets, moorish arches, green banner with arabic script, and the little balcony on the second floor that they always seem to tack on when they open them up in strip malls.

I always think, "Hmmm.  That's either a place to get some kick-ass lamb kabobs and maybe a decent belly-dance show, or it's a place to pray, men only.  If only I could read arabic I'd know for sure.  I guess I'll look for a pile of shoes outside the door, the presence or absence of which should tell me which."

Most mosques are rented out spaces and not specifically built structures.

Although this is changing quickly as the community becomes more mature.

[phk]

Yep, most mosques are pretty plain and dont particularly announce themselves.

...as long as you ignore the minarets, moorish arches, green banner with arabic script, and the little balcony on the second floor that they always seem to tack on when they open them up in strip malls.

I always think, "Hmmm.  That's either a place to get some kick-ass lamb kabobs and maybe a decent belly-dance show, or it's a place to pray, men only.  If only I could read arabic I'd know for sure.  I guess I'll look for a pile of shoes outside the door, the presence or absence of which should tell me which."

Most mosques are rented out spaces and not specifically built structures.

Although this is changing quickly as the community becomes more mature.

.......and more suburban.

This is the closest one near my place in Fresno and it looks quite nice actually. Frequented mostly by Iraqis and well to do types. Boris said it felt more like a "church" than a "mosque".



Here is a more urban one, I suppose. Its more working class obviously. Frequented by blue collar Levantine Arabs and Pakistanis. I wouldn't be surprised if it reminded any of our British posters of UK mosques with less South Asians.  



This is I have never seen but its mostly populated by Blacks and is exclusively working class from what I know.

[angus]

This is the closest one near my place in Fresno and it looks quite nice actually. Frequented mostly by Iraqis and well to do types. Boris said it felt more like a "church" than a "mosque".

Let's be honest.  People are weird about mosques.  And muslims in general.  My neighbor, a dentist, father, and generally humorous and well-informed nice guy was talking to me a couple of days ago.  We were making the block, my son on his Razor scooter and my wife and me walking.  (They finally built the last house on the block and now we can actually make the entire block on good sidewalks without having to cross the street.)  I was asking the guy about where his wife works.  She's a pharmacist.  He says she works in the place where the "old John Deere pharmacy used to be."  The way small town people talk to each other, especially when they forget that you didn't grow up here and have no idea about where anything "used to be."  ("...just go to where that dog's always a-chasin' that old cat out to where there used to always be an old abandoned blue ford pickup, you know where I mean, then you turn left there..."  that sort of thing.)  So I give him that look that says, "ummm, John Deere Pharmacy?"--not that I don't know that John Deere is the largest employer in this county.  If it weren't for John Deere my employer would probably be the biggest.  I think JD has something like twenty thousand employees.  It accounts for the fact that we have many foreigners on my block.  Indians.  Chinese.  Bengalis.  You don't normally find that in small towns in the upper midwest.  But they're all engineers.  And they all work for John Deere.  But in the three years that I've lived in Iowa I haven't heard the term "John Deere Pharmacy."-Anyway, I ask, just in case he didn't catch my seriously confused glance, what John Deere Pharmacy?  And he goes on about how John Deere used to have its own insurance, its own physicians, its own dentists, its own pharmacy, etc.  Then it got a contract with United Conglomerated-Megalo Nameless And Faceless of of New Jersey, or something like that, and now if you work there you just have normal insurance.  Whatever.  Anyway, at some point he says, "...you know, it's over on the corner of Greenhill Boulevard and Katowski, you know, where they're building that Moslem church..."  And looks kinda funny when he says "moslem church."  So I ask, "um, you mean a mosque?"  (Stress on "mosque.")  He says, "uh, yeah, a Moslem mosque, yeah, she works over where they're building that moslem mosque."  And gives me that look that says, "Dude, can you actually believe they're building a moslem church here in Cedar Falls?"  I didn't probe further.  Usually, because I'm always asking him for favors.  Watch my crib while I"m in Cozumel for the next two weeks.  Feed my fish.  Water my plants.  Make sure there are no thieves.  Stuff like that.  I just make friendly conversation and avoid public policy or whatever.  But you could tell how weird about muslims, and their mosques he was.  And this guy is not a high school dropout or a CIA officer or a hit man.  He's a regular good ole' boy.  A white-collar, six-figure dude who listened to his Mama and didn't move more than five miles from her when he decided to have his own family.  And he's from one of the five states where two men can legally marry.  One of the "progressives," so to speak.  And even he's all weird about "moslem churches."  

So does it surprise me that the average blue-collar ("youze guys are all a bunch of morons, I oughtta kill youze") mafia types from ground zero are against a mosque in their neighborhood?  Or a bunch of neocon pro-Israeli zionists?  Or a bunch of irreligious capitalist pig Wall Street tycoons?  Or any of the other New York stereotypes you want to discuss?  Should it surprise us that they're 85 percent against the mosque?  No, it doesn't surprise me.  Hell, even out there, a thousand miles from 9/11 and a zillion light years from anywhere, folks know about "moslem churches."

Ah, well.  At least nothing runs like a Deere.  (That's for you, beet.)

[The Dowager Mod]

If they own the property they should be allowed to build whatever they want.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

I could care less - it's fine with me.

[Phony Moderate]

Tbh, I would have a problem with any religious building being built near it. It's not like Islam is the only religion which has killed people before.

[J. J.]

Catholics had little to do with the holocaust.

Actually Catholics had lots to do with the Haulocaust.  Its often not talked about because it makes Christians feel uncomfortable.  Jewish hatred didn't engender from Hitler, it came from prominent catholic priests and protestant leaders like Martin Luther and Thomas Aquinas as well as many Popes.  Christians in Austria, Italy and Germany had already believed that the Jews were inferior, which stemmed from the Christian texts, which imply that the Jews killed Jesus.  

The Romans didn't want to crucify Jesus. As a matter of fact they thought he was fairly innocent. The Jewish people in the crowd wanted Barabas <sp?> freed and Jesus crucified. So technically they are correct in saying the Jews killed Jesus.

The Jews in courtyard.  2/3 of the Jews in the world live outside of what today is Israel.

I think the argument against this is bin Laden is a "Muslim," the mosque is Muslim, therefor it is insulting to the victims to put a mosque near a 9-11 site.  You could make a parallel argument that Hitler was a "Christian," a church is Christian, therefor it is insulting the victims to put a church near a Holocaust site.

I don't agree with either argument.