How likely is the dissolution of Belgium? (user search)
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  How likely is the dissolution of Belgium? (search mode)
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Author Topic: How likely is the dissolution of Belgium?  (Read 1802 times)
Zinneke
JosepBroz
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« on: August 25, 2019, 10:13:15 AM »

To add to David's comment, even VB voters don't necessarily vote on independence. VB always say that independence is on the horizon to satisfy the hardline traditional independence people but then they run lists in Brussels and even Wallonia* insisting their priority is migration policy. All the University of Leuven studies in the past have shown that only 5-10% N-VA voters vote solely on independence and institutional issues (that's just N-VA voters...who have no majority in Flanders).

I still think a huge part of the Flemish electorate is apathetic either way, so although they don't actually express any clamour for an independent state in polls, if N-VA+VB were to push forward with independence (highly unlikely) and try to convince them Brexiteer-style that no adverse effects would arrive (including retaining EU membership) then they might buy into it.

The issue remains Brussels of course. There is no easy solution to that. A lot of Flemish wealth is made here and brought back to their home, not to mention the Brussels Rand has a myriad of companies ranging from multinationals to 3 guys dealing in arms trade somewhere in Africa from their basement in Dilbeek that don't want the potential disruption of a péage at the Brussels border. They've been brought up on the assumption that Brussels is theirs anyway.


*although that's mainly for the government grants.
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Zinneke
JosepBroz
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« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2019, 04:58:02 AM »

but then they run lists in Brussels and even Wallonia*
*although that's mainly for the government grants.

Some 18000 people in Wallonia actually voted for VB. Is there any indication on who these kind of voters are?

In a similar vein to Lega's newfound popularity in Southern Italy, you get a lot of right-wing Walloons who nod along to Flemish nationalist assertions about their own region (mainly their political class). I don't know the precise demographic make up of them though, but their vote share is in depressed industrial sh**tholes where there are a lot People's Front of Judea/Judean People's Front turfwars between tiny far right groupuscules, and VB just go in there, pick one of them as a head of list, and go to the electoral comission asking for more funds for running in 3 regions.

So VB just run in Wallonia officially because they protest the presence of Francophone parties in Flanders, most notably the six francophone majority communes. But also because they get this extra funding mechanism by doing so, its not a serious attempt to build a Walloon party. PTB/PVDA and Défi were afforded this mechanism when running in all 3 regions. VB don't invest a single euro into their Walloon campaign, but hope to get money from it.

Presumably at least some will be Flemish speakers?

Highly unlikely given its places like Charleroi, Borinage, etc. and the fact that the heads of list are almost always Francophones. Most Flemish speakers in Wallonia are pensioners in the Ardennes or Gaume (likely voting MR/cdH/PS in that order), with maybe a few in the "sleeping" facility zones on the border regions (e.g. Enghien has language facilities for Dutch-speakers).
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Zinneke
JosepBroz
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« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2019, 04:18:36 PM »

Its worth noting after those two excellent posts by Halifax that the reason why the Flemish nationalist establishment, particularly the N-VA, are so averse to referenda (compared to their Scottish and Catalan counterparts) is precisely because of those french-speaking communes.
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Zinneke
JosepBroz
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« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2019, 11:53:47 AM »

Its worth noting after those two excellent posts by Halifax that the reason why the Flemish nationalist establishment, particularly the N-VA, are so averse to referenda (compared to their Scottish and Catalan counterparts) is precisely because of those french-speaking communes.

What do you mean? Because they would hold referenda and leave an independent Flanders?

Because Flemish nationalists are against the idea of linguistic censii to determine the legal character of administrative entities due to the way Brussels was expanded on numerous occasions (communes with francophones majorities being awarded to Brussels to ensure the minority protection of francophones in the context of being in a Flemish enclave), and holding referenda opens that can of worms again. Hence why the Flemish parties were the ones to actually push for taking out referenda from the constitution (alongside Walloons disgruntled with the result and divisiveness of the Royal Question referendum...the results of which Nanwe posted way back in the thread).   

De Wever and even a lot of VBers want a velvet divorce à la Czechoslovakia. The hardline nationalist strategy (in broad strokes) is to push the socio-economic Federal institutions and Flemish political discourse so far right, and block as many federal or Francophone majority institutions (such as Brussels) that Wallonia especially wants the velvet divorce. Its not out of the question that that happens.

As Laki says there isn't actually that much appetite to bring the whole thing to an exhausting referendal exercise. People in Belgium are on the whole more individualistic. Our motto of "Strength in Union" has nothing to do with the convergence of Flemish, Walloon or Brussels identities around romantic notions of "Catholic solidarity" or "Anti-Dutch Colonialism". The DNA of this state is the Catholic and big Industry "Liberal" pillars - that previously had a lot of power under the Hapsburg Netherlands - putting aside their differences to rid themselves of an Enlightened Despotic Dutch King that wanted to change things too quickly. The original Constitution is about preserving the rights of the Church and the Family, as well as local bourgeois interests. Our state isn't so much ineffective and non-interventionist because of its multilayered mess, its just that Belgians on a whole have never had a strong sense of patriotism or the state as an actor even amongst elite circles, and it shows in how segregated and forgotten parts our society can sometimes be, as opposed to say the Netherlands.

The mistake of genuine Flemish nationalists is to think that by somehow creating a more authentic nation they can get rid of this mentality. De Wever wrote a decent book (bar a few populist passages) about "failed" Belgian identity, and lamenting it, and how a new Flemish identity could be built on several civic nationalist parameters. I don't think De Wever realises how his electorate really think though. They are voting for him and gradualist state dissolution as a means to an end. 
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Zinneke
JosepBroz
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« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2019, 03:04:41 PM »
« Edited: September 11, 2019, 03:08:21 PM by coloniac »

I think it's important to remember two things

1. Flemish nationalists want a Flemish state and the only realistic scenario where Belgium dissolves is Flanders seceding.

2. If Flanders secedes then Wallonia and Brussels would be the continuity state under internatonal law. They would remain "Belgium" and retain its EU and NATO memberships, whereas the new Flemish state would have to apply for membership of international organizations.

If Brussels then secedes from the much poorer Wallonia to become a city state Wallonia would remain "Belgium" (since Brussels is the capital of the union the EU would then have to find a way to make Brussels an instant EU member, and the same goes for NATO as its HQ is in Brussels).

There were talks between Wallonia and France to unite, or Wallonia to be even incorporated by Germany (Magnette had that idea once). Brussels is indeed a big problem, but in the case a dissolution happens, it would be a good idea to create Brussels D.C. as the capital of Europe and under juridisiction of the EU, but Wallonia probably can't survive alone so they would to France and Germany to incorporate them (most likely France).

Not sure Germany wants Wallonia, but Walloons do not want to be a part of France, whether its the political elites or the common person. Because the French have a way different governance model and Walloons want autonomy...which will not be afforded by any French government.

Brussels becoming DC...with no voting rights? And just an empty shell of institutions. No thanks. Half of Brussels citizens are probably still oblivious to the entire institutional debate.


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De Wever and even a lot of VBers want a velvet divorce à la Czechoslovakia. The hardline nationalist strategy (in broad strokes) is to push the socio-economic Federal institutions and Flemish political discourse so far right, and block as many federal or Francophone majority institutions (such as Brussels) that Wallonia especially wants the velvet divorce. Its not out of the question that that happens.
That's true. De Wever has said it openly. When polls indicated that PTB had 20%, he said that if Wallonia wants to be a communist state, it would be without them, but how much more they vote for the right in Flanders, how much more Wallonia will vote to the left, basically all right-wing and traditional parties who work together with N-VA will be punished for that in next electoral elections. It's complicated and a difficult country.

I think Walloons generally vote Left, and indeed vote in general, without thinking about the repercussions on the federal level though. MR lost a little but not that much. Its perhaps a bad thing but I don't think they vote left as an expression of Walloon regionalism. They are a bit oblivious of what happens in the north, and struggle to comprehend separatism. They were shocked at the VB result for example when everybody in Flanders saw it coming.  


Dissolution I would say unlikely. Confederalism like e.g. Switzerland? Could be on the table for the next couple of years now that the southern (Francophone) part of Belgium and the Northern (Dutch) part, voted pretty different, the first one voting more and more towards the (extreme) left side of the political spectrum, the second one doing the opposite and voting more and more towards the (extreme) right side of the political spectrum. So that's reality, and something that isn't easily solved.

Could confederalism be a solution? Don't know really now for certain. I would dare to say in theory yes but there are a lot of questions to be asked. Main thing being Brussels, I would say. What do you do with that? You can't "give" it to either the Dutch people or the French people. I'm also not that keen on splitting an already small country into even smaller bits (splitting is not really the correct term I know).

The thing about confederalism (which is hard to define as parochial said) is that it already de facto "exists" through the mechanism of seperate electoral districts in the regions, that are themselves legally on equal standing to the federation. So unlike in Spain and the UK the regional parliaments cannot be suspended, and indeed are the most powerful organs due to their fixed parliaments. If the country still runs without a federal government its also because a lot of competences are already regional.  

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N-VA probably hide behind "Confederalism" like the Quebec Seperatists hid behind "A new Economic and Political Partnership", while in reality they want a fully fledged independent State with nothing more than normal State to State relations with Wallonia.

Hmmm, I genuinely think some of the more soft-line nationalists (including potentially De Wever, who is a realist and a Burkean conservative above a chest-pumping nationalist) see the lack of integration of EU competences like Foreign Policy, and especially Defence, as a sign that the Belgian state still has its usefulness, so confederalism would allow them for example to not have to re-organise the military or our UN representation, and of course, EU membership and the considerable normative clout Belgium has a a small country. They wanted the EU to come in and cover those areas of competence but that looks dead in the water.

(Not to mention the Belgian national team and football league, but I imagine the BeNeLeague would be formed by then.)
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