Israeli General Election (2019) II: Electric Boogaloo (17.9.2019)

[DavidB.]

Aside from the draft law, what policies do the Haredi parties stymie that causes so much fury from the secular parties?

No public transit on shabbat, no public construction works on shabbat (e.g. railway maintenance, which led to conflict in the previous coalition), power of the Chief Rabbinate/no civil marriage and secular people having to go through an entire process with rabbis if they want to marry within Israel, closed shops on shabbat, lots of spending on subsidies for religious schools... in combination with the general perception of low labour participation, not being drafted, having ultra conservative views on (for example) women, and segregating themselves from the rest of society.

[jaichind]

Will Gesher  run in the Sept election ?

[DL]

Aside from the draft law, what policies do the Haredi parties stymie that causes so much fury from the secular parties?

No public transit on shabbat, no public construction works on shabbat (e.g. railway maintenance, which led to conflict in the previous coalition), power of the Chief Rabbinate/no civil marriage and secular people having to go through an entire process with rabbis if they want to marry within Israel, closed shops on shabbat, lots of spending on subsidies for religious schools... in combination with the general perception of low labour participation, not being drafted, having ultra conservative views on (for example) women, and segregating themselves from the rest of society.

Its amazing the garbage that these haredi parties impose on Israelis. Its like they want Israel to be some sort of Jewish version of Iran or Saudi Arabia.

Why can't there be a grand coalition for one term between Likud and Blue/White for no other reason that to exclude all the haredi parties from government, ditch all this religious claptrap from the Israeli law books and tell those freaks to go to hell???

[bigic]

Its amazing the garbage that these haredi parties impose on Israelis. Its like they want Israel to be some sort of Jewish version of Iran or Saudi Arabia.

Why can't there be a grand coalition for one term between Likud and Blue/White for no other reason that to exclude all the haredi parties from government, ditch all this religious claptrap from the Israeli law books and tell those freaks to go to hell???

I think the main reason is that it's not in Netanyahu's interest. Such a "grand" coalition is possible only without Netanyahu.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Why can't there be a grand coalition for one term between Likud and Blue/White for no other reason that to exclude all the haredi parties from government, ditch all this religious claptrap from the Israeli law books and tell those freaks to go to hell???

While I'd support most of the policy outcomes of such a coalition, "telling those freaks to go to hell" is never a good look for any kind of pluralistic society.

[PSOL]

Why can't there be a grand coalition for one term between Likud and Blue/White for no other reason that to exclude all the haredi parties from government, ditch all this religious claptrap from the Israeli law books and tell those freaks to go to hell???

While I'd support most of the policy outcomes of such a coalition, "telling those freaks to go to hell" is never a good look for any kind of pluralistic society.

Sometimes it’s the only way to get things done well.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Why can't there be a grand coalition for one term between Likud and Blue/White for no other reason that to exclude all the haredi parties from government, ditch all this religious claptrap from the Israeli law books and tell those freaks to go to hell???

While I'd support most of the policy outcomes of such a coalition, "telling those freaks to go to hell" is never a good look for any kind of pluralistic society.

Sometimes it’s the only way to get things done well.

Sidelining uncooperative or dishonest actors (which Shas and UTJ obviously are) is very often the only way to get things done well, yes. "Telling those freaks to go to hell" is that with the addition of value judgments about those actors' constituencies that I don't think are appropriate.

[Walmart_shopper]

Why can't there be a grand coalition for one term between Likud and Blue/White for no other reason that to exclude all the haredi parties from government, ditch all this religious claptrap from the Israeli law books and tell those freaks to go to hell???

While I'd support most of the policy outcomes of such a coalition, "telling those freaks to go to hell" is never a good look for any kind of pluralistic society.

You talk about a "pluralistic society" as if that were actually a thing here.

[Walmart_shopper]

Aside from the draft law, what policies do the Haredi parties stymie that causes so much fury from the secular parties?

No public transit on shabbat, no public construction works on shabbat (e.g. railway maintenance, which led to conflict in the previous coalition), power of the Chief Rabbinate/no civil marriage and secular people having to go through an entire process with rabbis if they want to marry within Israel, closed shops on shabbat, lots of spending on subsidies for religious schools... in combination with the general perception of low labour participation, not being drafted, having ultra conservative views on (for example) women, and segregating themselves from the rest of society.

Its amazing the garbage that these haredi parties impose on Israelis. Its like they want Israel to be some sort of Jewish version of Iran or Saudi Arabia.

Why can't there be a grand coalition for one term between Likud and Blue/White for no other reason that to exclude all the haredi parties from government, ditch all this religious claptrap from the Israeli law books and tell those freaks to go to hell???

This was the Liberman argument, and why we are heading to new elections.

[Hnv1]

On top of the basic religious grip on our lives I assume what annoys the average secular is the fact that as time goes by they're more shameless. (though I fully think they're a bit of a straw boogeyman and the religious zionist are more dangerous).

Anyway yes, an election on religion and state is bad news for Likud

[Zinneke]

On top of the basic religious grip on our lives I assume what annoys the average secular is the fact that as time goes by they're more shameless. (though I fully think they're a bit of a straw boogeyman and the religious zionist are more dangerous).

Anyway yes, an election on religion and state is bad news for Likud

Would this be parties like Jewish Home/New Right/United Right correct? What's their stance on the theocratic model?

Also how do the religious parties justify backing somebody with questionable morals like Netenyahu? Do any of them back social justice/anti/corruption policies? I remember David posted a Shas advert where it was clearly aimed at the working poor and their real issues vs the secular middle class and their fake ones. Does that narrative still exist in religious parties.

[Hnv1]

On top of the basic religious grip on our lives I assume what annoys the average secular is the fact that as time goes by they're more shameless. (though I fully think they're a bit of a straw boogeyman and the religious zionist are more dangerous).

Anyway yes, an election on religion and state is bad news for Likud

Would this be parties like Jewish Home/New Right/United Right correct? What's their stance on the theocratic model?

Also how do the religious parties justify backing somebody with questionable morals like Netenyahu? Do any of them back social justice/anti/corruption policies? I remember David posted a Shas advert where it was clearly aimed at the working poor and their real issues vs the secular middle class and their fake ones. Does that narrative still exist in religious parties.

Yes it's them. It's debatable, but as the debate with Smotric the past few days who wants more Jewish law implemented shows, they want a creeping theocracy unlike the singular theocracy of the Haredi.

They don't care much for Netanyahu's morals, preserving the land is much more important. I would say they have deplorable morals of their own, but you know to each is own.
Some espouse some form of leftist populist social justice platform, but this is done in a very Jewish\Israeli context and is hardly the center piece of their agenda

[Walmart_shopper]

On top of the basic religious grip on our lives I assume what annoys the average secular is the fact that as time goes by they're more shameless. (though I fully think they're a bit of a straw boogeyman and the religious zionist are more dangerous).

Anyway yes, an election on religion and state is bad news for Likud

Would this be parties like Jewish Home/New Right/United Right correct? What's their stance on the theocratic model?

Also how do the religious parties justify backing somebody with questionable morals like Netenyahu? Do any of them back social justice/anti/corruption policies? I remember David posted a Shas advert where it was clearly aimed at the working poor and their real issues vs the secular middle class and their fake ones. Does that narrative still exist in religious parties.

There is a wide spectrum of belief among the national religious about the nature of democracy and the role of religion in the State of Israel. At the heart of the religious Zionist project and vision is a Judaization of the entire Land of Israel, in culture, law, and land. So it's an intrinsically theocratic project. Nevertheless, Bennet tried hard to wean the national religious away from that model to a kind of US Republican Party model that embraced religious influence but didn't actually go fully theocratic. The Smotrich wing of the movement, as evidenced by his recent comments that likely cost him any shot at the Justice ministry, is more traditionally theocratic in its aims.

Oddly, though, when you ask most national religious about things like transportation on Shabbat or the chief rabbinate or even gay marriage there is a basically 50/50 split, which means that the national religious are far more socially liberal than their political leaders. Bennet thought he could tap into that but obviously he failed. That may be because whatever modernization is happening in the national religious sector, the political question of the settlements is dominant and those voters want the most hawkish leaders they can get.

The Haredim actually are less interested in Judaization of the country than in protecting communal interests. It's just that those interests are absolutely moon-bat crazy, like gender-segregated buses, avoiding the draft, funneling massive amounts of cash into failing Haredi schools that don't teach math or science. National religious can't stand any of this stuff, either, so most Israelis are revolted by it. But, as HNV said, it's bad, but not really nefarious. Haredim aren't messianic in their aims. They don't believe the country is a harbinger of messianic times and that we'd better occupy as many Palestinians as possible to make sure he comes.

The national religious are vastly more dangerous because they're more integrated in society and have a keen interest in Judaizing it. People who believe that there should be a a third temple on Al Aqsa and that occupation is divine mandate are now in leadership positions all over society.

[Walmart_shopper]

On top of the basic religious grip on our lives I assume what annoys the average secular is the fact that as time goes by they're more shameless. (though I fully think they're a bit of a straw boogeyman and the religious zionist are more dangerous).

Anyway yes, an election on religion and state is bad news for Likud

Would this be parties like Jewish Home/New Right/United Right correct? What's their stance on the theocratic model?

Also how do the religious parties justify backing somebody with questionable morals like Netenyahu? Do any of them back social justice/anti/corruption policies? I remember David posted a Shas advert where it was clearly aimed at the working poor and their real issues vs the secular middle class and their fake ones. Does that narrative still exist in religious parties.

Yes it's them. It's debatable, but as the debate with Smotric the past few days who wants more Jewish law implemented shows, they want a creeping theocracy unlike the singular theocracy of the Haredi.

They don't care much for Netanyahu's morals, preserving the land is much more important. I would say they have deplorable morals of their own, but you know to each is own.
Some espouse some form of leftist populist social justice platform, but this is done in a very Jewish\Israeli context and is hardly the center piece of their agenda

Exactly. It's lot like American evangelicals, actually. They made a huge deal about passing an animal rights bill last year that made sweeping changes to the way Israel imports meat. Which is ironic given how their agenda supports a treatment of Palestinian people that is arguably less honorable than a random cow headed for slaughter. It's so incredibly bourgeois, as though smoking weed, growing eucalyptus, hugging cows, and praying for the healing of the land somehow covers the multitude of sins of the occupation. Apparently the Netanyahus have all gone vegetarian for animal rights reasons, too.  The irony of that is probably the most tragic and sad thing about living here. I find Haredi antiquarianusm idiotic and weird, but I'd much rather go for that than the ethnic cleansing messianism of the current religious right in Israel.

[Zinneke]

thanks for your replies.

[America Needs R'hllor]

I mostly agree with Hnv and Walmart, but another point- the Haredim might be principally interested in protecting their sector's interests, but those interests touch heavily on the rest of the public. It's not just the draft or education- their demands on shutting down the entire country in Saturdays, including completely secular areas, is incredibly harmful to simple people (I definitely feel it strongly). They won't stand for any gay rights or civil marriages, and they'd segregate any event or location where a Haredi man's legs might someday touch. They're also very dangerous. Their form of theocracy might not be a slowly creeping one like that of the national religious parties, but they want anything public- services and streets- to live by theocratic laws.

[Hnv1]

rumors that Barak is considering running for the Labour top post again. what a failure of a party

[Famous Mortimer]

What happened to National Union? Does Tkuma control National Union's assets?

[Hnv1]

What happened to National Union? Does Tkuma control National Union's assets?

The National Union is essentially Tkuma-Moledet who merged. they're one and same

[Walmart_shopper]

rumors that Barak is considering running for the Labour top post again. what a failure of a party

At least Ehud Barak has demonstrated an relatively healthy understanding of the concept of "opposition." Compared to Buji Herzog and Avi Gabbay, Barak comes across as a passionate and eminently competent genius. That obviously reflects more on the ideological poverty of the Labor Party than on Barak, but he's at least a step in the right direction. The left in Israel is so shell-shocked they seem no longer able to grasp, let alone articulate, the values of pluralism, democracy, equality, etc. So they keep pushing for cooperation with the egregious offenders of those values and preen an absurd "centrism." Halas. If Barak can at least stop that drift I'll be grateful.

[Walmart_shopper]

Apparently Meretz is considering uniting with Hadash-Taal. I think it's a great idea, but frankly I think Meretz-Labor and an Arab Joint List running separately would net more mandates than Labor and Ram-Balaad running separately and Meretz running with Hadash-Taal. I have no clue how the Arab public would react to such a union, either, but I wonder if it would actually backfire.

[Zinneke]

Aren't Meretz more of a party that advocates the strengthening and emancipation of Arabs and Palestinian identity within an Israeli (thus somewhat Jewish, although obviously secular) state context? Whereas the two others actively question the existence or necessity of a Jewish state and would favour one state solution? Or have policies changed?

sorry if this is phrased stupidly.

[danny]

At least Ehud Barak has demonstrated an relatively healthy understanding of the concept of "opposition." Compared to Buji Herzog and Avi Gabbay, Barak comes across as a passionate and eminently competent genius. That obviously reflects more on the ideological poverty of the Labor Party than on Barak, but he's at least a step in the right direction. The left in Israel is so shell-shocked they seem no longer able to grasp, let alone articulate, the values of pluralism, democracy, equality, etc. So they keep pushing for cooperation with the egregious offenders of those values and preen an absurd "centrism." Halas. If Barak can at least stop that drift I'll be grateful.

In what way? Barak was by far the worst Labour leader in that respect. He didn't just join Netanyahu's government, he did it after explicitly promising not to, and ended up leaving the party just so that he could remain in it.

[America Needs R'hllor]

At least Ehud Barak has demonstrated an relatively healthy understanding of the concept of "opposition." Compared to Buji Herzog and Avi Gabbay, Barak comes across as a passionate and eminently competent genius. That obviously reflects more on the ideological poverty of the Labor Party than on Barak, but he's at least a step in the right direction. The left in Israel is so shell-shocked they seem no longer able to grasp, let alone articulate, the values of pluralism, democracy, equality, etc. So they keep pushing for cooperation with the egregious offenders of those values and preen an absurd "centrism." Halas. If Barak can at least stop that drift I'll be grateful.

In what way? Barak was by far the worst Labour leader in that respect. He didn't just join Netanyahu's government, he did it after explicitly promising not to, and ended up leaving the party just so that he could remain in it.

Yep. He has literally no appeal- he's a rich elitist who acted only for his own interests as a politician. There's no reason he should be given any leadership, he should just stay out. If Labour wants a chance at an ideological revival, it lies, imo, in people like Shaffir.

[Walmart_shopper]

At least Ehud Barak has demonstrated an relatively healthy understanding of the concept of "opposition." Compared to Buji Herzog and Avi Gabbay, Barak comes across as a passionate and eminently competent genius. That obviously reflects more on the ideological poverty of the Labor Party than on Barak, but he's at least a step in the right direction. The left in Israel is so shell-shocked they seem no longer able to grasp, let alone articulate, the values of pluralism, democracy, equality, etc. So they keep pushing for cooperation with the egregious offenders of those values and preen an absurd "centrism." Halas. If Barak can at least stop that drift I'll be grateful.

In what way? Barak was by far the worst Labour leader in that respect. He didn't just join Netanyahu's government, he did it after explicitly promising not to, and ended up leaving the party just so that he could remain in it.

Yep. He has literally no appeal- he's a rich elitist who acted only for his own interests as a politician. There's no reason he should be given any leadership, he should just stay out. If Labour wants a chance at an ideological revival, it lies, imo, in people like Shaffir.

Shaffir would be my pick, too. But is there anything, when considering the last, say, five, Labor leaders that makes you think that Labor will choose her and not some excruciatingly establishment collaborationist shill? Labor can be counted on to almost reflexively do the wrong thing politically.