MA-1: Morse accused of inappropriate sexual relations with college students

[JerryArkansas]

I supported Neal at the start but because of the ridiculous puritan and homophobic, don't date college students otherwise you're a sexual assaulter, I was hoping Morse would win.

When they're your potential students you don't date them.  How hard is that to grasp?

[Intell]

I supported Neal at the start but because of the ridiculous puritan and homophobic, don't date college students otherwise you're a sexual assaulter, I was hoping Morse would win.

When they're your potential students you don't date them.  How hard is that to grasp?

It wasn't his students though and both people were consenting adults? What are you guys religious catholics?

[JerryArkansas]

I supported Neal at the start but because of the ridiculous puritan and homophobic, don't date college students otherwise you're a sexual assaulter, I was hoping Morse would win.

When they're your potential students you don't date them.  How hard is that to grasp?

It wasn't his students though and both people were consenting adults? What are you guys religious catholics?

No, I'm a gay man whos gone through something similar and know that kind of power imbalance isn't good at all for either party.

[Intell]

I supported Neal at the start but because of the ridiculous puritan and homophobic, don't date college students otherwise you're a sexual assaulter, I was hoping Morse would win.

When they're your potential students you don't date them.  How hard is that to grasp?

It wasn't his students though and both people were consenting adults? What are you guys religious catholics?

No, I'm a gay man whos gone through something similar and know that kind of power imbalance isn't good at all for either party.

Difference of opinion but labelling him a sexually assaulter was disgusting, and that alone would make me support Morse.

[It's not just that you are a crook senator]

I supported Neal at the start but because of the ridiculous puritan and homophobic, don't date college students otherwise you're a sexual assaulter, I was hoping Morse would win.

When they're your potential students you don't date them.  How hard is that to grasp?

With that kind of logic, no one should have sex with anyone because potentially you can be in a power dynamic with everyone one day.

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

Biden would probably have caught less flack to begin with if the only other candidate in the presidential primary was someone to the right of him, like Manchin.

I'd argue that the presence of Bloomberg and Buttigieg helped Biden. Sure, Buttigieg was to Biden's left, but he symbolized everything progressives hate about the Democratic Party. He seemed like a moderate hero straight out of central casting - not to mention him being much worse on police reform than Biden was much more recently.

Overall, you summed up a lot of my thoughts. I don't think Alben would be above the hypocrisy - it's rather human that you'd give people you agree with a chance.

Bloomberg especially. Biden was always going to be better on smaller debate stages as we saw with his 1v1 against Sanders, but I thought he looked much more comfortable than in the previous debate when Bloomberg was on stage (not just because the man was a terrible debater, but because he could tout his relative progressivism).

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Congratulations to Andrew Abramson and Timothy Ennis on their new employment in the office of Congressman Neal!

There is no evidence whatsoever that Neal or his campaign had anything to do with that hit-job. 

Wasserman calls it for Neal.

Glorious news

Why? Lloyd Doggett would have been a far better Ways and Means chair. Neal is far worse than even the average moderate Democrat when it comes to being compromised by corporate influence.

He's a guilty until proven innocent type.

No, I can only speak for myself, but the issue for me is that while the allegations by that College Dems group were clearly a disgusting hit-job, IIRC Morse himself still admitted to having had sex with students (not his own, but still ones attending the university that he taught at).  That’s unacceptable, period.  You may disagree, but for me this is a deal-breaker.  Plus, it seems pretty clear from the margin that Morse was gonna lose either way.  Richard Neal was never a great target. 

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

It’s amazing. It truly is.

Ed Markey:

— Voted for NAFTA
— Voted for the 1994 crime bill
— Voted for the Iraq War
— Didn’t support busing back in the day
— Is an old career politician in office for about 50 years

You know, it's funny; I thought progressives were the ones perpetuating cancel culture by demanding ideological purity from every candidate. But you'd have us as compromising hypocrites.

Surely Markey's victory proves that if you make concessions to the left, you'll win a substantial amount of their support, even if you have made mistakes in the past. Come to think of it, the fact that Biden's cleaning up with progressives in polls probably proves that too - but I understand the narrative that "progressives are immature!!!111" needs to be maintained as an insurance scapegoat in case your guy loses.

I don't particularly mind you guys demonising the left - we're used to it by now - but at least have a consistent caricature.

Not gonna lie, you actually make a really good point

[Meatball Ron]

Shameful that the homophobic smear campaign dragged a promising candidate through the mud.

Here's hoping Morse comes back in 2022 and annihilates Neal.

High probability that redistricting removes some of the more progressive Morse-friendly towns from this district and Neal becomes even safer

That'd be incredibly difficult to do. Many of Morse's best towns were from Berkshire county, which borders Vermont. It'd be very difficult to finagle MA-01 and MA-02 to get rid of these towns, especially since both seats need to expand eastward.

It's much more likely that Neal's seat becomes less safe for him after redistricting just due to population trends, not vice versa.

Dude I didn't just like, make that up. But go off.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/richard-neal-defeats-alex-morse-democratic-primary_n_5f4ec694c5b6fea87461bae3

"Neal’s political impregnability is likely to increase when Massachusetts’ Democratic-controlled legislature draws new congressional districts to reflect changes in population distribution recorded in the 2020 census. Poll watchers expect lawmakers in the Bay State to cut some of the more liberal parts of his district in Franklin and Hampshire counties out of his seat."

[Figueira]

Shameful that the homophobic smear campaign dragged a promising candidate through the mud.

Here's hoping Morse comes back in 2022 and annihilates Neal.

High probability that redistricting removes some of the more progressive Morse-friendly towns from this district and Neal becomes even safer

That'd be incredibly difficult to do. Many of Morse's best towns were from Berkshire county, which borders Vermont. It'd be very difficult to finagle MA-01 and MA-02 to get rid of these towns, especially since both seats need to expand eastward.

It's much more likely that Neal's seat becomes less safe for him after redistricting just due to population trends, not vice versa.

Most of Morse's best towns were in Franklin and Hampshire Counties, and can easily be added to MA-2 (where they would be a good fit for Jim McGovern). The question is, what MA-2 towns do you add to MA-1 to make up for it, especially when Neal's district probably needs to expand to keep up with population trends? I think Belchertown, Ware, and parts of Worcester County are the obvious choices. It might cut into McGovern's Worcester base, but his pre-2013 district didn't include all of the Worcester area either.

[Brittain33]

I'm not sure I understand how "don't date students if you're a professor" is homophobic?

He wasn’t a professor, he was an adjunct who came in to teach one class once a week while being mayor as his real job.

[Figueira]

I hope I'm not breaking the redistricting discussion rule, but here's a sketch of what MA-1 could look like if they want to make it even safer for Neal. It has the added bonus of making McGovern's seat more D (and more McGovern-friendly). This is based on 2010 population numbers, so if more towns need to be added, the district can be extended along the RI border.

Edit: I should have kept Granby in the district.

[Badger]

It’s amazing. It truly is.

Ed Markey:

— Voted for NAFTA
— Voted for the 1994 crime bill
— Voted for the Iraq War
— Didn’t support busing back in the day
— Is an old career politician in office for about 50 years

You know, it's funny; I thought progressives were the ones perpetuating cancel culture by demanding ideological purity from every candidate. But you'd have us as compromising hypocrites.

Surely Markey's victory proves that if you make concessions to the left, you'll win a substantial amount of their support, even if you have made mistakes in the past. Come to think of it, the fact that Biden's cleaning up with progressives in polls probably proves that too - but I understand the narrative that "progressives are immature!!!111" needs to be maintained as an insurance scapegoat in case your guy loses.

I don't particularly mind you guys demonising the left - we're used to it by now - but at least have a consistent caricature.

I suspect the strongest point here is the fact that all these things are theoretically good reasons for Markey (or Biden) to have been primaried from the left 15 to 25 years ago, but hold little salience beyond the absolute true believers in 2020.

[Badger]

I'm not sure I understand how "don't date students if you're a professor" is homophobic?

He wasn’t a professor, he was an adjunct who came in to teach one class once a week while being mayor as his real job.

I really wish I had known this succinct summary of the actual situation prior to reading this post. Not that the psychic energy of my privately rooting for morse here in Ohio would have changed one vote, but perhaps if voters understood this.

No kidding, until reading this post I had the misimpression that Morse had slept with some of the students he regularly taught. And if I believed that, being more tuned into politics than 99.9% of voters, imagine what the typical voter in this race thought.

What a sadly effective hit job.

[Zaybay]

Shameful that the homophobic smear campaign dragged a promising candidate through the mud.

Here's hoping Morse comes back in 2022 and annihilates Neal.

High probability that redistricting removes some of the more progressive Morse-friendly towns from this district and Neal becomes even safer

That'd be incredibly difficult to do. Many of Morse's best towns were from Berkshire county, which borders Vermont. It'd be very difficult to finagle MA-01 and MA-02 to get rid of these towns, especially since both seats need to expand eastward.

It's much more likely that Neal's seat becomes less safe for him after redistricting just due to population trends, not vice versa.

Most of Morse's best towns were in Franklin and Hampshire Counties, and can easily be added to MA-2 (where they would be a good fit for Jim McGovern). The question is, what MA-2 towns do you add to MA-1 to make up for it, especially when Neal's district probably needs to expand to keep up with population trends? I think Belchertown, Ware, and parts of Worcester County are the obvious choices. It might cut into McGovern's Worcester base, but his pre-2013 district didn't include all of the Worcester area either.

The issue to this is population trends though.
https://population-map.districtbuilder.org/

According to the 2018 census estimates, Neal's seat is going to need about 30K new voters. MA-02, on the other hand, is going to need 12K new voters. The issue that I brought up is that, just simply due to population changes, Neal is going to get voters who are either:
A. Hostile to him to begin with, as is with Franklin, Hampshire, and a large portion of Berkshire
B. Have no connection to Neal at all, as the voters in Worcester county would be

Neither of these groups are good from a primary perspective, especially since Neal's base is extremely Hampden county-centric.

[coloradocowboi]

Arguably, as an adjunct (and I should know because I am one), students have more sway over his potential career prospects than he would over anything more than maybe a grade. The power dynamics argument is BS. It's just yet another lame attempt by reactionaries (including gay reactionaries) to pretend like sexual puritanism is a progressive value when it's not.

If two adults consent to have sex (and actually, I don't think he even acknowledge that he banged any of the students. The term used was dates, so until I hear otherwise)... it's perfectly fine. People saying that it's "creepy" are just mimicking the rhetoric that has been used to demonize gay men for decades, whether intentional or not. To this day, when gay men are arrested and prosecuted for sexual assault or statutory rape, they face stiffer penalties, more jail time, and higher rates of guilty verdicts. So, don't be cute, you're actually being homophobic even if you're gay. There is a massive academic literature and history behind this, and you're welcome to look it up on your own time. I'm not going to cite it or quote it here because I am personally cynical that anybody making the "inappropriate" argument even believes it. Like all establishment, pro-corporate, pro-corruption Democrats they just find whatever convenient argument they can to disparage the left and legitimate corruption, and it's just telling that they are willing to perpetuate lies (the "rape" or "assault" thing) and other forms of homophobic discourse just to keep big pharma's favorite congressman in office.

[Figueira]

Shameful that the homophobic smear campaign dragged a promising candidate through the mud.

Here's hoping Morse comes back in 2022 and annihilates Neal.

High probability that redistricting removes some of the more progressive Morse-friendly towns from this district and Neal becomes even safer

That'd be incredibly difficult to do. Many of Morse's best towns were from Berkshire county, which borders Vermont. It'd be very difficult to finagle MA-01 and MA-02 to get rid of these towns, especially since both seats need to expand eastward.

It's much more likely that Neal's seat becomes less safe for him after redistricting just due to population trends, not vice versa.

Most of Morse's best towns were in Franklin and Hampshire Counties, and can easily be added to MA-2 (where they would be a good fit for Jim McGovern). The question is, what MA-2 towns do you add to MA-1 to make up for it, especially when Neal's district probably needs to expand to keep up with population trends? I think Belchertown, Ware, and parts of Worcester County are the obvious choices. It might cut into McGovern's Worcester base, but his pre-2013 district didn't include all of the Worcester area either.

The issue to this is population trends though.
https://population-map.districtbuilder.org/

According to the 2018 census estimates, Neal's seat is going to need about 30K new voters. MA-02, on the other hand, is going to need 12K new voters. The issue that I brought up is that, just simply due to population changes, Neal is going to get voters who are either:
A. Hostile to him to begin with, as is with Franklin, Hampshire, and a large portion of Berkshire
B. Have no connection to Neal at all, as the voters in Worcester county would be

Neither of these groups are good from a primary perspective, especially since Neal's base is extremely Hampden county-centric.

It's not true that those areas of Worcester County have no connection to Neal; they were part of his district pre-2012. It's also not true that Berkshire County is hostile to Neal: while Morse won some towns there (in the far south which can't exactly be redistricted out), he lost the county by only a slightly smaller margin than the district as a whole.

I made this map to show how Neal's base can be solidified using the 2018 population numbers:

[Zaybay]

Shameful that the homophobic smear campaign dragged a promising candidate through the mud.

Here's hoping Morse comes back in 2022 and annihilates Neal.

High probability that redistricting removes some of the more progressive Morse-friendly towns from this district and Neal becomes even safer

That'd be incredibly difficult to do. Many of Morse's best towns were from Berkshire county, which borders Vermont. It'd be very difficult to finagle MA-01 and MA-02 to get rid of these towns, especially since both seats need to expand eastward.

It's much more likely that Neal's seat becomes less safe for him after redistricting just due to population trends, not vice versa.

Most of Morse's best towns were in Franklin and Hampshire Counties, and can easily be added to MA-2 (where they would be a good fit for Jim McGovern). The question is, what MA-2 towns do you add to MA-1 to make up for it, especially when Neal's district probably needs to expand to keep up with population trends? I think Belchertown, Ware, and parts of Worcester County are the obvious choices. It might cut into McGovern's Worcester base, but his pre-2013 district didn't include all of the Worcester area either.

The issue to this is population trends though.
https://population-map.districtbuilder.org/

According to the 2018 census estimates, Neal's seat is going to need about 30K new voters. MA-02, on the other hand, is going to need 12K new voters. The issue that I brought up is that, just simply due to population changes, Neal is going to get voters who are either:
A. Hostile to him to begin with, as is with Franklin, Hampshire, and a large portion of Berkshire
B. Have no connection to Neal at all, as the voters in Worcester county would be

Neither of these groups are good from a primary perspective, especially since Neal's base is extremely Hampden county-centric.

It's not true that those areas of Worcester County have no connection to Neal; they were part of his district pre-2012. It's also not true that Berkshire County is hostile to Neal: while Morse won some towns there (in the far south which can't exactly be redistricted out), he lost the county by only a slightly smaller margin than the district as a whole.

I made this map to show how Neal's base can be solidified using the 2018 population numbers:

1. Just because the same towns were in Neal's district does not mean that they have some sort of connection to him. If these towns were in Hampden county, then I would agree that these places would be favorable to Neal, but these towns are so far away from his power base and have been away from him for a decade. These are also towns that, historically, Neal has had issues with.

2. I did not claim that Berkshire county is hostile to Neal: he won it afterall. What I did claim was that a large portion of the district seems to despise Neal no matter what. Looking to previous primaries, a good portion of the county seems to reflexively vote against him, with Pittsfield keeping Berkshire loyal. This base of voters can't be removed.

3. I do like your map. This isn't a critique, I just really like it. MA-07 is a bit janky, but otherwise it looks great!

4. Just going back to the beginning, Neal is and always was a Hampden county Democrat. That's always been his base, and they've continued to stick by him. With Hampden county's relative decline in population compared to the state, however, Neal is going to need to take in territory that he inherently does not have a connection with. It may not be enough to pose a serious threat, hell Neal may just retire in 2022 and this whole point will be moot, but it will still be unfriendly turf.

[Pulaski]

It’s amazing. It truly is.

Ed Markey:

— Voted for NAFTA
— Voted for the 1994 crime bill
— Voted for the Iraq War
— Didn’t support busing back in the day
— Is an old career politician in office for about 50 years

You know, it's funny; I thought progressives were the ones perpetuating cancel culture by demanding ideological purity from every candidate. But you'd have us as compromising hypocrites.

Surely Markey's victory proves that if you make concessions to the left, you'll win a substantial amount of their support, even if you have made mistakes in the past. Come to think of it, the fact that Biden's cleaning up with progressives in polls probably proves that too - but I understand the narrative that "progressives are immature!!!111" needs to be maintained as an insurance scapegoat in case your guy loses.

I don't particularly mind you guys demonising the left - we're used to it by now - but at least have a consistent caricature.

I suspect the strongest point here is the fact that all these things are theoretically good reasons for Markey (or Biden) to have been primaried from the left 15 to 25 years ago, but hold little salience beyond the absolute true believers in 2020.

Let me be clear, though: I have no issue with Kennedy primarying Markey - I have no issue with literally anyone being primaried. The whole point of elections is that you're not entitled to a seat beyond the term to which you're elected. I'm nearly always going to support the candidate I believe more likely to push progressive legislation in the future, though.

[Figueira]

Shameful that the homophobic smear campaign dragged a promising candidate through the mud.

Here's hoping Morse comes back in 2022 and annihilates Neal.

High probability that redistricting removes some of the more progressive Morse-friendly towns from this district and Neal becomes even safer

That'd be incredibly difficult to do. Many of Morse's best towns were from Berkshire county, which borders Vermont. It'd be very difficult to finagle MA-01 and MA-02 to get rid of these towns, especially since both seats need to expand eastward.

It's much more likely that Neal's seat becomes less safe for him after redistricting just due to population trends, not vice versa.

Most of Morse's best towns were in Franklin and Hampshire Counties, and can easily be added to MA-2 (where they would be a good fit for Jim McGovern). The question is, what MA-2 towns do you add to MA-1 to make up for it, especially when Neal's district probably needs to expand to keep up with population trends? I think Belchertown, Ware, and parts of Worcester County are the obvious choices. It might cut into McGovern's Worcester base, but his pre-2013 district didn't include all of the Worcester area either.

The issue to this is population trends though.
https://population-map.districtbuilder.org/

According to the 2018 census estimates, Neal's seat is going to need about 30K new voters. MA-02, on the other hand, is going to need 12K new voters. The issue that I brought up is that, just simply due to population changes, Neal is going to get voters who are either:
A. Hostile to him to begin with, as is with Franklin, Hampshire, and a large portion of Berkshire
B. Have no connection to Neal at all, as the voters in Worcester county would be

Neither of these groups are good from a primary perspective, especially since Neal's base is extremely Hampden county-centric.

It's not true that those areas of Worcester County have no connection to Neal; they were part of his district pre-2012. It's also not true that Berkshire County is hostile to Neal: while Morse won some towns there (in the far south which can't exactly be redistricted out), he lost the county by only a slightly smaller margin than the district as a whole.

I made this map to show how Neal's base can be solidified using the 2018 population numbers:

1. Just because the same towns were in Neal's district does not mean that they have some sort of connection to him. If these towns were in Hampden county, then I would agree that these places would be favorable to Neal, but these towns are so far away from his power base and have been away from him for a decade. These are also towns that, historically, Neal has had issues with.

2. I did not claim that Berkshire county is hostile to Neal: he won it afterall. What I did claim was that a large portion of the district seems to despise Neal no matter what. Looking to previous primaries, a good portion of the county seems to reflexively vote against him, with Pittsfield keeping Berkshire loyal. This base of voters can't be removed.

3. I do like your map. This isn't a critique, I just really like it. MA-07 is a bit janky, but otherwise it looks great!

4. Just going back to the beginning, Neal is and always was a Hampden county Democrat. That's always been his base, and they've continued to stick by him. With Hampden county's relative decline in population compared to the state, however, Neal is going to need to take in territory that he inherently does not have a connection with. It may not be enough to pose a serious threat, hell Neal may just retire in 2022 and this whole point will be moot, but it will still be unfriendly turf.

1. I'll be honest, I didn't know Neal had issues with those areas. Still, they're not some bastion of progressivism so while they could give him a challenge in 2022 (like Berkshire County did in 2012) I don't see them voting for a Morse type in the future.

2. It's not just Pittsfield; most of northern Berkshire County is pretty establishment-friendly as well.

3. Thanks! Yeah, I wasn't sure what to do with MA-7. Allston and Brighton had to go to MA-5 to connect to Brookline, so I had to make that up somehow. Maybe I should have just made Brookline part of MA-7. I removed it from MA-4 to protect Auchincloss (assuming he wins).

4. Well there's no way Neal is going to be 100% safe. But I think the lines I drew will make him more safe from a Morse-style challenger. Which is unfortunate, because it means the rest of us are stuck with him being in Congress until he retires.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

It’s amazing. It truly is.

Ed Markey:

— Voted for NAFTA
— Voted for the 1994 crime bill
— Voted for the Iraq War
— Didn’t support busing back in the day
— Is an old career politician in office for about 50 years

You know, it's funny; I thought progressives were the ones perpetuating cancel culture by demanding ideological purity from every candidate. But you'd have us as compromising hypocrites.

Surely Markey's victory proves that if you make concessions to the left, you'll win a substantial amount of their support, even if you have made mistakes in the past. Come to think of it, the fact that Biden's cleaning up with progressives in polls probably proves that too - but I understand the narrative that "progressives are immature!!!111" needs to be maintained as an insurance scapegoat in case your guy loses.

I don't particularly mind you guys demonising the left - we're used to it by now - but at least have a consistent caricature.

Not gonna lie, you actually make a really good point

Sorry for the double quote, but no one would see this post otherwise

I can only speak for myself, but I also think you can turn that around too.  If Atlas is anything to go by, non-Berniecrat supporters were happy to back folks like Ritchie Torres (who got most of the establishment support in his primary), Mondaire Jones, Jesse Mermell*, Marie Newman, etc. 

Kori Bush winning was met with a resounding “meh, Clay got what he deserved.”  No one in the national establishment made a serious effort to help Henry Cueller and most of the Biden supporters on Atlas were rooting for Cisneros.  And there were clearly plenty of Biden/Markey/ and Bernie/Kennedy voters.  Even Ilhan Omar was - and still is tbh - the DFL establishment candidate when she first ran for Congress.

If you look at the race for Susan Davis’ open house seat, the decidedly anti-Squad Jewish political establishment has been actively supporting a Berniecrat (I keep getting fundraising e-mails about this race and I live in Ohio ) who is running against a Jewish establishment hack by the name of Sara Jacobs.  Why?  B/c Jacobs’ opponent reached out in good-faith instead and there turned out to be plenty of common ground on non-Israel issues.

All of which is to say that there is plenty of evidence both from Atlas anecdotes and RL voting behavior/political activities that both the establishment and Berniecrat wings are much more willing to compromise with each other in good-faith than either is willing to give the other credit for. 

*Mermell was a Ritchie Torres/Ayanna Pressley-style progressive rather than an Ilhan Omar/Rashida Tlaib type.

[Morning in Atlas]

https://twitter.com/DRBoguslaw/status/1326568503701348352?s=19

They released their investigative report. tl;dr they found no issues with the students' behaviors but ruled that the MADP leadership (mainly Bickford and Martinez) violated their bylaws and were biased towards Neal.

The report also found multiple instances from College Democrats regarding Morse's behavior. I could see where one of the allegations could be credible and there isn't much to go off of the other. Even Abramson telling him to stop and Morse not stopping seems super sketchy.

I'm not sure what to believe anymore. I'd need more context to make a concrete judgment, but I could see where some of what Morse did could be considered creepy or weird.