Puerto Rico status referendum - June 11

[Green Line]

DC should not be a state. Give its population to Maryland or something, but cities should not be entire states.

You know, there are good arguments to be made about why D.C. should not be a state, but this incredibly arbitrary reason is not one of them. Why does the population density of a certain area disqualify it from being a state?

It would be government redundancy.  A waste of money.

[Blackacre]

DC should not be a state. Give its population to Maryland or something, but cities should not be entire states.

You know, there are good arguments to be made about why D.C. should not be a state, but this incredibly arbitrary reason is not one of them. Why does the population density of a certain area disqualify it from being a state?

It would be government redundancy.  A waste of money.

By that logic, Wyoming and Vermont should not be states, because they have fewer people than DC

[Gass3268]

There is no logical reason for DC NOT to be a state, unless you think land is more important that actual people.

[RI]

DC should not be a state. Give its population to Maryland or something, but cities should not be entire states.

You know, there are good arguments to be made about why D.C. should not be a state, but this incredibly arbitrary reason is not one of them. Why does the population density of a certain area disqualify it from being a state?

It's not population density, it's the lack of balance between regions and interests. Every state in the country has cities and rural areas; even New Jersey, the densest state, has rural areas. Creating a city-state seems in contradiction to everything the term "state" has historically meant in the US.

[Chief Justice Keef]

Just make Puerto Rico and the District of Columbia states already. They're pretty much states by now except not-in-name. I don't care about the politics behind it and whether that means gains for Democrats, I just think they both deserve representation by this point in the House and Senate.

What they should do is have DC become a state, PR with the Virgin Islands become a state, and the Northern Marianas, Guam and American Samoa combine to form one state.

[Gass3268]

Just make Puerto Rico and the District of Columbia states already. They're pretty much states by now except not-in-name. I don't care about the politics behind it and whether that means gains for Democrats, I just think they both deserve representation by this point in the House and Senate.

What they should do is have DC become a state, PR with the Virgin Islands become a state, and the Northern Marianas, Guam and American Samoa combine to form one state.

I agree 100% with this, the only issue is that population of Pacifica (my persona preference for a name) would probably be too small for a state with just American Samoa, Guam, and the Northern Mariana Islands. Now you would probably get a big enough population if you included Associated states, the countries that are technically independent but relay in the United States for a log (defense, funding, currency, government services, etc). If you add these locations (Federated States of Micronesia, Marshal Islands, and Palau) you get a population of 469,305.

[Figueira]

DC should not be a state. Give its population to Maryland or something, but cities should not be entire states.

You know, there are good arguments to be made about why D.C. should not be a state, but this incredibly arbitrary reason is not one of them. Why does the population density of a certain area disqualify it from being a state?

It's not population density, it's the lack of balance between regions and interests. Every state in the country has cities and rural areas; even New Jersey, the densest state, has rural areas. Creating a city-state seems in contradiction to everything the term "state" has historically meant in the US.

But DC has a history of being a separate entity, and the people there want to be a state. Vermont doesn't really have cities (I don't think Burlington counts).

[windjammer]

Anyway, it's just a matter of time before DC and Puerto Rico get statehood.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Just make Puerto Rico and the District of Columbia states already. They're pretty much states by now except not-in-name. I don't care about the politics behind it and whether that means gains for Democrats, I just think they both deserve representation by this point in the House and Senate.

What they should do is have DC become a state, PR with the Virgin Islands become a state, and the Northern Marianas, Guam and American Samoa combine to form one state.

I agree 100% with this, the only issue is that population of Pacifica (my persona preference for a name) would probably be too small for a state with just American Samoa, Guam, and the Northern Mariana Islands. Now you would probably get a big enough population if you included Associated states, the countries that are technically independent but relay in the United States for a log (defense, funding, currency, government services, etc). If you add these locations (Federated States of Micronesia, Marshal Islands, and Palau) you get a population of 469,305.

Three things
- given that a lot of Pacific Islanders work on the mainland or Hawaii, its population is obviously a bit deflated at present. But there would be room for population growth, especially with the rush of investment that statehood would bring

- again roping in Samoa would be a bit absurd, given geographic realities. Indeed, you could make a decent state from the geographic area out of the Marianas, the Carolinas and the Marshall Islands, which contain all the countries you mention, and nearly make up the entirety of the Micronesia region. It would be a very decentralised state, but it could work
. Samoa? Probably wouldn't work.

- given that everybody expected NMi and Guam to unpartion themselves after ww2, but they still haven't done so means that a huge shake up in the Pacific is unlikely. (Unless a future American president really wants to make a statement about their Pacific policy.

[Dr. Arch]

So, I would like to fill everyone in on some events that are happening in Puerto Rico right now and the current mood (after talking to my family for a while). The Joint Finance Committee that congress instated wants to push an agenda of extreme austerity, cutting $500M from the University of Puerto Rico, reducing all health programs for the elderly, and cutting cash from infrastructure maintenance (an already crumbling one, mind you).

The Committee has taken all fiscal power away from the local government, which means that the local government cannot pass any budget or financial bills without its approval. The current governor has refused to follow their "recommendations" given that they would pretty much destroy whatever is left of the economy.

People used to be divided on the Committee, thinking it would help put things back on track, but a financial gridlock has taken place between the local government and the unelected members of the Committee who are not accountable, in any way, to the public.

People are pissed, really pissed, and things are now exponentially escalating. Even those who supported statehood, like my parents, are livid because the U.S. failed to give Puerto Rico the power to either restructure its debts or declare bankruptcy. Instead, they got this Committee that couldn't care less about what happens to the general public.

Now, what this does is that it polarizes the dialogue on statehood. While I initially thought statehood would easily pass in this referendum, I don't think that's a given anymore given how things are changing and escalating.

It is now not off the table that Puerto Rico might end up distancing itself from the United States, with a slight change that they might vote for Independence. For a vote to become a freely associated country (no longer forfeiting sovereignty) to pass, the metro area would have to vote sharply for statehood, while the rest of the island goes for free association by about a 10 point margin.

A vote for Independence could very narrowly pass if the metro area also grows disillusioned and doesn't turn out or barely votes for statehood, while the rest of the island swings heavily for it.

What I'm saying is that things are getting murkier and the Committee is not helping the case for statehood because they stand as a symbol that says that the U.S. just doesn't care about the island or its inhabitants anymore.

[NOVA Green]

Thanks for the update Arch!

Are there any early indications from the tea leaves of Civil Society in terms of how non-political organizations are positioning themselves on statehood vs independence?

(Labor Unions, Student Organizations, faith-based organizations, small business associations, etc....)

Just curious what the respective coalitions look like and how they are positioning themselves on this issue, which will likely be the most important electoral decision in the history of the Island, from a long-term perspective.

[Dr. Arch]

Thanks for the update Arch!

Are there any early indications from the tea leaves of Civil Society in terms of how non-political organizations are positioning themselves on statehood vs independence?

(Labor Unions, Student Organizations, faith-based organizations, small business associations, etc....)

Just curious what the respective coalitions look like and how they are positioning themselves on this issue, which will likely be the most important electoral decision in the history of the Island, from a long-term perspective.

That's a good question! Students Orgs are pretty much divided on the status, but there's a fair deal of them that are now full-throttled Independence advocates (something that was only expected of the Puerto Rican version of the 'hippie' class just several years ago). It seems that things are becoming polarized, and nobody really wants the middle ground anymore.

Faith-based organizations are almost 100% statehood advocates, as the statehood party (PNP) is almost entirely voiced by protestant social conservatives. The Catholic church can go either way depending on the region.

Labor organizations (unions et al.) are more varied. I can't really tell where they're all going. Truckers are pro-statehood for the most part, teachers are either for free association or independence, for the most part. Coalitions can go either way here.

Puerto Rico's voting patterns are extremely swingy and almost always anti-status quo. The next couple of months will be crucial in determining the June vote.

I would also point out that the Comisión Estatal de Elecciones (the Elections Commission) has named this as the "Plebiscite on Decolonization" rather than a "Status Referendum." I think the distinction is important here because it's indicative of how the dialogue is shaping up and how people are viewing this referendum coming into it.

[Senator Spark]

I find this amazing and I would support it. I feel that Puerto Rico deserves statehood status by now. When would they officially become a state of the U.S.? I think we have an obligation to assist people in need, regardless of politics.

[Dr. Arch]

I find this amazing and I would support it. I feel that Puerto Rico deserves statehood status by now. When would they officially become a state of the U.S.? I think we have an obligation to assist people in need, regardless of politics.

That is entirely dependent on Congress. It could be the next day after the vote if they wanted it so.

[Senator Spark]

I find this amazing and I would support it. I feel that Puerto Rico deserves statehood status by now. When would they officially become a state of the U.S.? I think we have an obligation to assist people in need, regardless of politics.

That is entirely dependent on Congress. It could be the next day after the vote if they wanted it so.

Hey Arch, and really? I doubt they will act on it that quickly.

[Dr. Arch]

I find this amazing and I would support it. I feel that Puerto Rico deserves statehood status by now. When would they officially become a state of the U.S.? I think we have an obligation to assist people in need, regardless of politics.

That is entirely dependent on Congress. It could be the next day after the vote if they wanted it so.

Hey Arch, and really? I doubt they will act on it that quickly.

Heya and yes. Congress could do it right now and could have done it over the last 60 years or so if they would have wanted to. The ability to determine Puerto Rico's political status has rested solely within the Congress of the United States for quite a bit now.

The current "Freely-Associated State" or "Commonwealth" status was originally intended to be a transitory affiliation, which is why it has been so detrimental in the long run.

This referendum is a democratic exercise to see where the will of the residents of Puerto Rico stands at this time and to push the U.S. government to act on it.

[Senator Spark]

I find this amazing and I would support it. I feel that Puerto Rico deserves statehood status by now. When would they officially become a state of the U.S.? I think we have an obligation to assist people in need, regardless of politics.

That is entirely dependent on Congress. It could be the next day after the vote if they wanted it so.

Hey Arch, and really? I doubt they will act on it that quickly.

Heya and yes. Congress could do it right now and could have done it over the last 60 years or so if they would have wanted to. The ability to determine Puerto Rico's political status has rested solely within the Congress of the United States.

This referendum is a democratic exercise to see where the will of the residents of Puerto Rico stands at this time and to push the U.S. government to act on it.

Exactly. And according to the previous referendum in 2012, I believe that they had voted for statehood over independence. They probably could do it as soon as possible, but I think it is more of a tedious process and would not be completed instantaneously.

[Dr. Arch]

I find this amazing and I would support it. I feel that Puerto Rico deserves statehood status by now. When would they officially become a state of the U.S.? I think we have an obligation to assist people in need, regardless of politics.

That is entirely dependent on Congress. It could be the next day after the vote if they wanted it so.

Hey Arch, and really? I doubt they will act on it that quickly.

Heya and yes. Congress could do it right now and could have done it over the last 60 years or so if they would have wanted to. The ability to determine Puerto Rico's political status has rested solely within the Congress of the United States.

This referendum is a democratic exercise to see where the will of the residents of Puerto Rico stands at this time and to push the U.S. government to act on it.

Exactly. And according to the previous referendum in 2012, I believe that they had voted for statehood over independence. They probably could do it as soon as possible, but I think it is more of a tedious process and would not be completed instantaneously.

There were questions over the validity of the last referendum because it was poorly designed, which is why this one is taking place. However, I don't think Congress will act on this one either, unless the situation worsens as it's looking like it will.

They can't keep ignoring Puerto Rico forever. It's one of the few remaining colonies in the modern political world.

[Senator Spark]

I find this amazing and I would support it. I feel that Puerto Rico deserves statehood status by now. When would they officially become a state of the U.S.? I think we have an obligation to assist people in need, regardless of politics.

That is entirely dependent on Congress. It could be the next day after the vote if they wanted it so.

Hey Arch, and really? I doubt they will act on it that quickly.

Heya and yes. Congress could do it right now and could have done it over the last 60 years or so if they would have wanted to. The ability to determine Puerto Rico's political status has rested solely within the Congress of the United States.

This referendum is a democratic exercise to see where the will of the residents of Puerto Rico stands at this time and to push the U.S. government to act on it.

Exactly. And according to the previous referendum in 2012, I believe that they had voted for statehood over independence. They probably could do it as soon as possible, but I think it is more of a tedious process and would not be completed instantaneously.

There were questions over the validity of the last referendum because it was poorly designed, which is why this one is taking place. However, I don't think Congress will act on this one either, unless the situation worsens as it's looking like it will.

They can't keep ignoring Puerto Rico forever. It's one of the few remaining colonies in the modern political world.

True. And you've been Puerto Rican all this time?

[Dr. Arch]

I find this amazing and I would support it. I feel that Puerto Rico deserves statehood status by now. When would they officially become a state of the U.S.? I think we have an obligation to assist people in need, regardless of politics.

That is entirely dependent on Congress. It could be the next day after the vote if they wanted it so.

Hey Arch, and really? I doubt they will act on it that quickly.

Heya and yes. Congress could do it right now and could have done it over the last 60 years or so if they would have wanted to. The ability to determine Puerto Rico's political status has rested solely within the Congress of the United States.

This referendum is a democratic exercise to see where the will of the residents of Puerto Rico stands at this time and to push the U.S. government to act on it.

Exactly. And according to the previous referendum in 2012, I believe that they had voted for statehood over independence. They probably could do it as soon as possible, but I think it is more of a tedious process and would not be completed instantaneously.

There were questions over the validity of the last referendum because it was poorly designed, which is why this one is taking place. However, I don't think Congress will act on this one either, unless the situation worsens as it's looking like it will.

They can't keep ignoring Puerto Rico forever. It's one of the few remaining colonies in the modern political world.

True. And you've been Puerto Rican all this time?

Yeah? haha. It's not like something like that is subject to change Why do you ask?

[Senator Spark]

I find this amazing and I would support it. I feel that Puerto Rico deserves statehood status by now. When would they officially become a state of the U.S.? I think we have an obligation to assist people in need, regardless of politics.

That is entirely dependent on Congress. It could be the next day after the vote if they wanted it so.

Hey Arch, and really? I doubt they will act on it that quickly.

Heya and yes. Congress could do it right now and could have done it over the last 60 years or so if they would have wanted to. The ability to determine Puerto Rico's political status has rested solely within the Congress of the United States.

This referendum is a democratic exercise to see where the will of the residents of Puerto Rico stands at this time and to push the U.S. government to act on it.

Exactly. And according to the previous referendum in 2012, I believe that they had voted for statehood over independence. They probably could do it as soon as possible, but I think it is more of a tedious process and would not be completed instantaneously.

There were questions over the validity of the last referendum because it was poorly designed, which is why this one is taking place. However, I don't think Congress will act on this one either, unless the situation worsens as it's looking like it will.

They can't keep ignoring Puerto Rico forever. It's one of the few remaining colonies in the modern political world.

True. And you've been Puerto Rican all this time?

Yeah? haha. It's not like something like that is subject to change Why do you ask?

Never knew that. I guess now we can be friends right?

[Dr. Arch]

I find this amazing and I would support it. I feel that Puerto Rico deserves statehood status by now. When would they officially become a state of the U.S.? I think we have an obligation to assist people in need, regardless of politics.

That is entirely dependent on Congress. It could be the next day after the vote if they wanted it so.

Hey Arch, and really? I doubt they will act on it that quickly.

Heya and yes. Congress could do it right now and could have done it over the last 60 years or so if they would have wanted to. The ability to determine Puerto Rico's political status has rested solely within the Congress of the United States.

This referendum is a democratic exercise to see where the will of the residents of Puerto Rico stands at this time and to push the U.S. government to act on it.

Exactly. And according to the previous referendum in 2012, I believe that they had voted for statehood over independence. They probably could do it as soon as possible, but I think it is more of a tedious process and would not be completed instantaneously.

There were questions over the validity of the last referendum because it was poorly designed, which is why this one is taking place. However, I don't think Congress will act on this one either, unless the situation worsens as it's looking like it will.

They can't keep ignoring Puerto Rico forever. It's one of the few remaining colonies in the modern political world.

True. And you've been Puerto Rican all this time?

Yeah? haha. It's not like something like that is subject to change Why do you ask?

Never knew that. I guess now we can be friends right?

Why not?

[Senator Spark]

I find this amazing and I would support it. I feel that Puerto Rico deserves statehood status by now. When would they officially become a state of the U.S.? I think we have an obligation to assist people in need, regardless of politics.

That is entirely dependent on Congress. It could be the next day after the vote if they wanted it so.

Hey Arch, and really? I doubt they will act on it that quickly.

Heya and yes. Congress could do it right now and could have done it over the last 60 years or so if they would have wanted to. The ability to determine Puerto Rico's political status has rested solely within the Congress of the United States.

This referendum is a democratic exercise to see where the will of the residents of Puerto Rico stands at this time and to push the U.S. government to act on it.

Exactly. And according to the previous referendum in 2012, I believe that they had voted for statehood over independence. They probably could do it as soon as possible, but I think it is more of a tedious process and would not be completed instantaneously.

There were questions over the validity of the last referendum because it was poorly designed, which is why this one is taking place. However, I don't think Congress will act on this one either, unless the situation worsens as it's looking like it will.

They can't keep ignoring Puerto Rico forever. It's one of the few remaining colonies in the modern political world.

True. And you've been Puerto Rican all this time?

Yeah? haha. It's not like something like that is subject to change Why do you ask?

Never knew that. I guess now we can be friends right?

Why not?

Sounds entirely plausible, it's time to put the ideological differences aside.

[heatcharger]

Lol what is happening in this thread?

[Dr. Arch]

Lol what is happening in this thread?

You can skip the social stuff and go right for the content above.