Rank the Prime Ministers of Canada

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Can only do Post-Laurent I'm afraid.

1) L.B Pearson, Liberal
2) Pierre Trudeau, Liberal
3) Jean Chretien, Liberal
4) Diefenbaker, Progressive Conservative
5) Clark, Progressive Conservative
6) Martin, Liberal
7) Campbell, Progressive Conservative
8 ) Turner, Liberal
9 ) Mulrooney, Progressive Conservative
10) Harper, Conservative

Forgot about Turner. Not that he really matters anyway.

Now how about "Rank the Taoisigh (Irish PMs)" thread.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Trudeau does have that love-hate relationship with Canadians. I personally thought he was a great PM, which is why he's #1. Pearson was also a great PM, thanks to the fact he had a minority.

Feel free to rate the Irish and British PMs too

Yay! Feel the Pearson love.

Anyway I will now highjack this thread in order to rank the Taoisigh (a separate thread would get no replies other than Jas' - to be fair, he would be the only one who knew what I would be talking about...)

1. John Bruton (FG-Coalition 1994-1997) - Odd Choice, but I generally think he was the most capable of our Taoisigh. And never a real party hack either.
2. Sean Lemass (Fianna Fail 1959-1966) *- In reality is the best probably, but my own personal biases against FF preclude him from being number 1. That and the media bullying, and the arrogance, and being a background man of De Valera before his time.
3. WT Cosgrave (Cumann Na nGaedhael 1922-1932) - The founder of the Republic, but what a republic it was. (ie. a Failure). More than any other politician I can think of the Phrase "He did alot of good and alot of bad for the country" is totally and utterly appropriate. Though technically his title was "President of the Executive Council" not Taoiseach, that would only come in in 1937; so don't correct me Jas.
4. John A. Costello (FG-Coalition 1948-1951; 1954-1957)
5. Albert Reynolds (Fianna Fail-Coalition 1992-1994)
6. Garret Fitzgerald (FG-Coalition 1981-1982(Feb); 1982(nov)-1987) - My personal favourite of all the Taoisigh, but a complete failure at the role. But then the state we were in in the 1980s it's somewhat forgivable. A real honest list would have him below #7.
7. Bertie Ahern (Fianna Fail Coalition 1997- End of Time )
8. Jack Lynch (Fianna Fail 1966-1973; 1977-1979) Would be alot higher if not his second period in office after 1977...
9. Liam Cosgrave (FG-Coalition 1973-1977) Alot of potential; such a pity.
10. Eamonn De Valera (Fianna Fail 1932-1948; 1951-1954; 1957-1959).. Don't get me started.
11. Charles Haughey (Fianna Fail 1979-1981; 1982(Feb-Nov); 1987-1992).. Really, the list will could go on and on and on.....

EDIT: To include Liam Cosgrave...

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Not bothering to Quote the whole post...

#1: Which was really a VAT on Women's shoes until the media blew it all out of proportion. Of course it never would have happened in the first place if not the complete and utter failures that were a certain adminstration before his. My Grandfather actually met him a couple of times when he was working in Trinity in the 80s. Plently of ehmm.. interesting stories.

#2: As I said in all rights should really be number 1, if it weren't for the inbuilt Fianna Fail arrogance and constant media bullying which was part of his period in power. That and the referendum to get rid of PR-STV and replace it with FPTP - has anything ever screamed more "OMG Power Grab" in history? But no doubt the end of protectionism is his great achievement. Free secondary education was over due. Probably the only taoiseach that I can think of that ever engaged in that most unIrish of activities: long-term planning.

#3: "Beyond leading a stable goverment from Civil war" - no doubt like you make it sound; an easy thing to achieve, the foundation of the guards and the major instutions of state. NOT supporting an Anti-Dev military coup (a serious possibility) after losing the election in 1932; thus ensuring democracy in Ireland. Reconciliation between both sides after the civil war (as much as that could really be achieved). The Boundary commission.. well.. I've tended to think it would have caused more problems than solved. Cutting the old age pension though is never a good idea politically. Plus Ardnacrusha, electrification, etc. Pity about the Tory-Conservative Catholicism though. At least it wouldn't get as bad as under his successor...

#4: Dammit! I knew there was something I should have been more pedantic about. . While choosing this I thought hard about what were Costello's achievements in his second term? And really struggled there. Perhaps I'm being unfair on him but in his times in offices he seems little more than a shadowy figure (Of course he wasn't leader of FG at the time; only chosen as coalition Partners would not except General Richard Mulcahy, due his leadership during the civil war). Should have stood up more to the Catholic Church; but perhaps a bit too early in 1951. At least reversed some of De Valera's economic policies, introduced more Keynesian planning (not neccesarily a positive thing at all when compared to later years..)

#5: I think Reynolds struggled to get on with anyone who was not Reynolds. Decriminalisation of Homosexuality was way overdue (Though perhaps the European Court of Human Rights and David Norris should get the credit for this..) Very much a transition figure - at least he moved away from Haughey's policies in the North. And wasn't a corrupt bastard either.

#6: My Favourite "person" to be Taoiseach. But as leader he was a failure. Failed to get the deficit in line, didn't make brave enough decisions. At least he was the first Taoiseach to really be somewhat progressive on Social issues but Divorce really is a secondary issue compared to the state of Ireland's economy at the time.

#7: Think of Bertie as an asleep driver running across a very flat, very straight road which goes on for miles and miles and miles. Thanks to the Celtic Tiger, the bit of the road around Dublin is brilliant, despite taking 10 years to get planning permission and around 15 to build. Things are still better than before outside Dublin as you hit Laois, Offaly, etc.. The road gets worse and worse. Luckily for Bertie he will be in Galway soon, where FF's investments have really paid off. But this road can't go on forever.. either Bertie has to wake up (Will John Gormley prod into doing so?) or the Car will eventually crash. (You forgot to mention the privitisation of Telecom Eireann.. but of course that feels like ages ago now.)

#8: EEC Entry inevitable by this time; none of his achievements were really down to him himself, as would be typical of a sports star turned politician. And that's not to mention his document for economic wrecklessness (also known as the 1977 Fianna Fail Manifesto)

OMG I've just realized I forgot Liam Cosgrave (FG Coalition 1973-77); he would go here. A failure of a goverment despite everything. It's probably for the best we both forgot him. What happened to President O Dallaigh was well, a stain on this country.

#10 (Formerly #9): The man had no Economic sense whatsoever. Plus he relationship with Archbishop McQuaid was very damaging towards the protestant community here (Ne Temere decree and all that.. My Father wasn't allowed to mix with "de Catholic girls" from an early age in the youth groups he joined because of that..). Neutrality was good, but nearly any Taoiseach (except James Dillon) would have done the same.

#11: Nothing more needs to be said. Haughey seems to like Pierre Trudeau in this case. Impossible to be neutral.

So yeah, Canada:

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Stop spamming this thread with Irish discussions, Gully

No.

The First referendum on the removal of PR-STV (ie. The one that actually had a chance of winning) took place on the same day was the 1959 Presidential election to put Dev into that ceremonial office, so it was just after he retired and Lemass was just taoiseach. Lemass led the campaign and Fianna Fail's slogan was "Vote Dev and Yes". It failed by 52-48. The later referendum was in 1968 under Lynch.

And thank god for that, imagine how much more depressing Irish politics would have been if we had FPTP all this time. FF really would be an Irish PRI or LDP then.

As for Bertie, well I never said the roads didn't improve - inevitable though given the economic boom. I still think my analogy of Bertie-the-Driver still stands. He inherited all of his good fortune and hasn't really done much with it. Despite this he still gets all the kudos.

Half of this thread is Irish now. w00t.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

By the way, would you consider Harper the Canadian Gipper?

Uh.  No.

Mulrooney would really be the Canadian Reagan, no?

Harper seems to me to be more the Canadian Benjamin Harrison.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

@Jas:

The First referendum on the removal of PR-STV (ie. The one that actually had a chance of winning) took place on the same day was the 1959 Presidential election to put Dev into that ceremonial office, so it was just after he retired and Lemass was just taoiseach. Lemass led the campaign and Fianna Fail's slogan was "Vote Dev and Yes". It failed by 52-48. The later referendum was in 1968 under Lynch.

And thank god for that, imagine how much more depressing Irish politics would have been if we had FPTP all this time. FF really would be an Irish PRI or LDP then.

Maybe, hard to say really exactly what ways things would be different. Probably a much smaller Labour party, Greens might never have gotten a seat, Independents a rarity.

Thank goodness it never passed, I have very little time for the FPTP system.

As for Bertie, well I never said the roads didn't improve - inevitable though given the economic boom. I still think my analogy of Bertie-the-Driver still stands. He inherited all of his good fortune and hasn't really done much with it. Despite this he still gets all the kudos.

Maybe, but he's the leader. The buck steps there and so forth. Just as much as other Taoisigh get credit and blame for things they had little/no control over - so doth Bertie.

Well at the last election Fianna Fail 'won' 40 constituencies and Fine Gael just 3 (Kerry North, Mayo and Roscommon-S.Leitrim).. Politics in Ireland would become even more localized then.. FG would probably grow a significant machine in South Dublin, The Outer-Dublin Lenister Counties, Rural Cork, Mayo and the rest of Connacht (sans Galway).. FF would rule the roost everywhere else probably with some dashes of Labour in Dublin, South Lenister and Cork City. 'Twould be a nightmare. The Greens could forget about it, and the PDs would never have been formed.

When talking about things Bertie and co have had control over there is very little to shout about; the same old "School X will finally be built in my constituency by the next election" for all the past three elections (Previous goverments can't claim such an economic success), same with health, the nice treaty referendum (OMG TEH PEEPLE MADE TEH MISTAKKKE!!111), the Abortion referendum, the privitisation of Telecom Eireann (not that this was a bad thing in itself, just the way it was done), Decentralisation or lack of it (see Privitisation of Telecom Eireann) and of course, Transport - at least perhaps with the greens in goverment we won't have a policy of "Roads, aren't they just fantastic?" but I'm not holding my breath.

@EarlAW:
Nah, I'd say Chreiten is Clinton, Martin is Carter and Campell is a female William Henry Harrison.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

@Jas:
Well at the last election Fianna Fail 'won' 40 constituencies and Fine Gael just 3 (Kerry North, Mayo and Roscommon-S.Leitrim)..

Yeah, but FPTP would necessitate 166 constitutencies (goodness knows how the country would be divided) - plus it would also affect how people vote. Take away people's ability to use preferences and their voting style will change dramatically.

Politics in Ireland would become even more localized then..

Doubt it, that's hardly possible actually. The emergence of actual 'safe seats' turn things into a game of chasing marginals.

FG would probably grow a significant machine in South Dublin, The Outer-Dublin Lenister Counties, Rural Cork, Mayo and the rest of Connacht (sans Galway).. FF would rule the roost everywhere else probably with some dashes of Labour in Dublin, South Lenister and Cork City. 'Twould be a nightmare. The Greens could forget about it, and the PDs would never have been formed.

Yep, I doubt the Greens would ever have gotten a seat.

The PDs though - I'd imagine could have and would have. Bearing in mind that they were formed by defection, they would already have had parliamentary seats without fighting an election. They would almost certainly have held some of these - possibly made gains in Limerick even. Survial beyond that depends on whether they go into coalition government which would be dependent on numbers and so forth- and at that point one would be strectching hypotecising to its limits.

I know that.. Dividing Dublin into 10 or so constituencies of 3, 4 or 5 seats is hard enough already.. Bertie Ahern TD for Drumcondra vs Enda Kenny TD for Castlebar West, anyone? I've no doubt they would still use the county boundaries to guide the drawing of seats (well, as much as possible.. they can't do it perfect now so under this system.. well they would try. And Leitrim would have enough for a seat. No more whinging about not having a TD if that's some god given right.

We have safe seats now o\c - Was Groucho Marx of Limerick's (AKA Willie O'Dea) seat ever under threat? Nahhh.. And the idea of chasing marginals is dependant on the idea that the opposition could actually win an election.. And yes Irish politics would get more local (well, if that's possible), Carlow-Kilkenny get 5 seats already and is highly localized - an uber-rural Urlingford-Kilkenny County seat.....

But As you say by now we're "hypotecising to its limits".

Where else but on the atlas would a discussion entitled "Rank the Prime Ministers of Canada" would end up as a discussion on what if the 1959 Anti-PR referendum in Ireland had passed?

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Mulrooney would really be the Canadian Reagan, no?

Sort of.  He did win the biggest landslide in Canadian history, but he's also now pretty much universally hated.

Ah yes. Of course you can argue that Reagan SHOULD be universally hated

There are many parallels between the 1984 Canadian election and the 1984 US Presidential race.

Reagan would probably have been universally hated too had he actually tried to rein in the deficit... but there are alot of similiaties between the two men. Apart from being evil, obviously.