A question about the opponents of gay marriage

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Maybe a better question is why they should expect everyone else to obey Biblical law.

If gay people getting married and those who support their right to do so are condemned to an eternity in Hell, then that sounds like our problem more than it does yours.

Yes, but if I endorsed gay marriage, I would be supporting sin, which is a sin in itself. I draw the line at civil unions not only due to societal tradition and what I feel the purpose of marraige to be, but also out of loyalty to god.

I support some gay marriage supporting politicians (Franken, Braley, Baker, Klobuchar, Heitkamp, Kirkpatrick etc.) because the rest of their platform doesn't suck and because their opposition isn't appealing enough for me. I don't believe I should ruin the world with worse politicians over one issue, and I don't feel that God expects me to do so. But on my views on gay marriage and whether I would vote for a law or referendum allowing it - the bible is clear - I must oppose it, no matter whether I want to or not, or I am going directly against the word of god, which I am always striving to avoid.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

I must oppose it, no matter whether I want to or not, or I am going directly against the word of god, which I am always striving to avoid.

If you see married same sex couples, some who have been together for years, decades even and they are caring for each other, supporting each other, nursing each other through illness and death, do you see in that 'sinful acts'?

When my husband was in hospital and I held his hand as he went under general anaesthetic and he came out of it, do you think that was a sinful act? When I changed his bandages and washed his scars was that a sinful act? I did these things because I love him more than I've ever known how to love. Was it the result of 'sinful' lust?

Gay Marriage is a sinful act. Now, caring for someone else is fine, and spousal hospital visitation rights are something  I'd be willing to allow under a civil union.

Homosexuals should be able to resist the urge to enter a full fledged marriage. I don't consider being/acting homosexual, or entering into a civil union that has clear differences from a marriage,  a sin. Caring for homos is not a sin, and I don't support conversion therapy or discrimination against homosexuals in education, employment, or provision of non-wedding-related services.

But once you enter into a full fledged gay marriage, or a gay civil union that is indistinguishable from a gay marriage, you are sinning and should be ashamed.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

I must oppose it, no matter whether I want to or not, or I am going directly against the word of god, which I am always striving to avoid.

If you see married same sex couples, some who have been together for years, decades even and they are caring for each other, supporting each other, nursing each other through illness and death, do you see in that 'sinful acts'?

When my husband was in hospital and I held his hand as he went under general anaesthetic and he came out of it, do you think that was a sinful act? When I changed his bandages and washed his scars was that a sinful act? I did these things because I love him more than I've ever known how to love. Was it the result of 'sinful' lust?

Gay Marriage is a sinful act. Now, caring for someone else is fine, and spousal hospital visitation rights are something  I'd be willing to allow under a civil union.

Homosexuals should be able to resist the urge to enter a full fledged marriage. I don't consider being/acting homosexual, or entering into a civil union that has clear differences from a marriage,  a sin. Caring for homos is not a sin, and I don't support conversion therapy or discrimination against homosexuals in education, employment, or provision of non-wedding-related services.

But once you enter into a full fledged gay marriage, or a gay civil union that is indistinguishable from a gay marriage, you are sinning and should be ashamed.

Hilarious!

Sin is never hilarious. It is filthy and abhorring to the eyes of god and all good christians. No one is perfect and everyone sins sometimes. But it is something that all good christians should strive to avoid.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

I must oppose it, no matter whether I want to or not, or I am going directly against the word of god, which I am always striving to avoid.

If you see married same sex couples, some who have been together for years, decades even and they are caring for each other, supporting each other, nursing each other through illness and death, do you see in that 'sinful acts'?

When my husband was in hospital and I held his hand as he went under general anaesthetic and he came out of it, do you think that was a sinful act? When I changed his bandages and washed his scars was that a sinful act? I did these things because I love him more than I've ever known how to love. Was it the result of 'sinful' lust?

Gay Marriage is a sinful act. Now, caring for someone else is fine, and spousal hospital visitation rights are something  I'd be willing to allow under a civil union.

Homosexuals should be able to resist the urge to enter a full fledged marriage. I don't consider being/acting homosexual, or entering into a civil union that has clear differences from a marriage,  a sin. Caring for homos is not a sin, and I don't support conversion therapy or discrimination against homosexuals in education, employment, or provision of non-wedding-related services.

But once you enter into a full fledged gay marriage, or a gay civil union that is indistinguishable from a gay marriage, you are sinning and should be ashamed.

Hilarious!

Sin is never hilarious. It is filthy and abhorring to the eyes of god and all good christians. No one is perfect and everyone sins sometimes. But it is something that all good christians should strive to avoid.

what would you do if your son was gay?

Simply encourage him to submit to god and not enter a gay marriage.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Gay marriage is saying you are proud of sin. Entering into a lesser relationship indicates you have some degree of shame and can therefore be tolerated by society. But once you enter a gay marriage, you have no shame for your sin, and worse, are directly telling society that sin is o.k.

Gay sex is not a good thing, but it is a far lesser and much more tolerable sin than that of gay marriage.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

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[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Wulfric, what is opinion of the right of the Episcopal Church of New York to marry same-sex couples? Should they have their religious freedom stripped because a majority of Christian denominations disagree?

That church does not practice Christianity in the best methods, true. But god would not want us shutting down an attempt at worship, no matter how futile. Hopefully through thought and prayer, that church will realize the error of its ways and stop performing same sex marriages.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

I must oppose it, no matter whether I want to or not, or I am going directly against the word of god, which I am always striving to avoid.

If you see married same sex couples, some who have been together for years, decades even and they are caring for each other, supporting each other, nursing each other through illness and death, do you see in that 'sinful acts'?

When my husband was in hospital and I held his hand as he went under general anaesthetic and he came out of it, do you think that was a sinful act? When I changed his bandages and washed his scars was that a sinful act? I did these things because I love him more than I've ever known how to love. Was it the result of 'sinful' lust?

Gay Marriage is a sinful act. Now, caring for someone else is fine, and spousal hospital visitation rights are something  I'd be willing to allow under a civil union.

Homosexuals should be able to resist the urge to enter a full fledged marriage. I don't consider being/acting homosexual, or entering into a civil union that has clear differences from a marriage,  a sin. Caring for homos is not a sin, and I don't support conversion therapy or discrimination against homosexuals in education, employment, or provision of non-wedding-related services.

But once you enter into a full fledged gay marriage, or a gay civil union that is indistinguishable from a gay marriage, you are sinning and should be ashamed.

There's not enough moderation in your post.  Only 55% of gay marriages are sinful.

As I've stated, that ratio is something SWE came up with, and I don't endorse it or strive to follow it. I do value compromise, and my views range throughout the political spectrum if you go issue by issue. But to say I take every single issue and immediately head to the most moderate position I can think of is just silly. I simply take whatever position makes the most sense to me, regardless of that position's perceived place on the political spectrum or the party label behind a given endorser of that position.

This is one of the big reasons I'll never join either political party - it gives me the freedom to take the positions I want to take on the issues. If you join a political party, you feel some sense of loyalty to them and you'll eventually find yourself, at least on occasion, voting for candidates or supporting positions based solely on party loyalty or (if you hold political office) fear of punishment by other members of the party. By remaining independent, I can freely change my positions based on what I feel is best for society, without feeling guilty for going against my party or, if I ever hold political office, risking punishment from other members of the party.

By punishment, I mean primary challenges, removal from congressional committees, etc.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

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Who ever said gay people were bad?

If someone supports a ban on gay marriage or supports any law that discourages homosexuality, they obviously have a problem with homosexuality.  If homosexuality is wrong, then presumably, there's something wrong with gay people.

To Clarify: I do not buy into the Rick Santorum/Ted Cruz notion that homosexuality is a disease, nor do I consider being homosexual a choice. Now, you can force yourself to not act on those desires, yes, but you cannot take them away entirely.

Gay People should simply respect what was, until recently, respected as both secular and religious tradition, and avoid destroying the institution of marriage by extending it beyond a man and a woman.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Wulfric, the Bible is against divorced people remarrying. Why don't you feel equally strongly that remarriage should be illegal? Do you see an inconsistency here?

In an ideal world, that would be banned. However, that's not realistic in my wildest dreams. Banning SSM potentially is, at least for now. And in any case, remarriage is ineffective on the strength of the institution of marriage - it doesn't harm the sacred 'one man/one woman bonded together, primarily to raise children' definition of marriage, SSM is destroying that sacred and essential definition as we speak.

Now, comes the obvious question of "Why allow infertiles to marry?". First off, being required to show an official regulating marriage a significant part of one's medical record is a serious infringement on one's privacy. And secondly, the man-woman definition is still kept intact and is not destroyed. Finally, this sort of prohibition is not needed for rational basis review. Rational basis allows for an imperfect fit - as long as it does not destroy the logic behind the policy, and infertile couples marrying does not destroy the logic of man-woman marriage, which is to encourage the kind of relationships that most help the state's interest in procreation, which is obviously man-woman marriage and not same-sex marriage.

I'm not in favor of prohibiting gay couples from living together or adopting. But the state should simply not be required to subsidize it because it is not the situation that best advances the state's interest in procreation.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Wulfric, You never answered my earlier question about what your ideal version of a civil unions law would look like, so let me try to reframe my question in terms of your religious opposition to the legalization of same-sex marriage:

You say you oppose legalizing same-sex marriage because God is opposed to same-sex marriage. But you have said numerous times that you support legalizing some form of civil unions so long as they are not "marriage-in-name-only." So can you identify even just one particular right of married couples that you would specifically absolutely oppose providing to gay couples in civil unions? What is it besides the label "marriage" that must be kept from gay couples according to your beliefs?

Approaching this another way, which rights do you think God would be ok with the state extending to civil unioned couples? Or is it purely an aggregate thing? Like, is it ok for the state to give straight couples the full bundle of marriage rights and then give gay couples that bundle minus one random right so long as they know they're getting slightly fewer rights?

Rights highlighted in red would not be allowed under a civil union.

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This is only a rough list, if I was in government, I'd pour through the official list of marriage rights. But this should give you a rough idea.