Argentina General Discussion: Shock Therapy

[Red Velvet]

Guys, if you want to talk sh**t about LaTaM issues, just troll one of my Peru threads.

Light skin mestizo peruvians who only know the andean towns where their grandparents lived don't care about where the white part of their DNA come from (they suppose Spain usually, but that's it).
Doing research on those issues is not common.

We should have a LatAm general thread instead of always using the Argentina one by default.

As for your 2nd part, it’s probably related to how non-white ancestry was erased, so in societies with high Indigenous ancestry like Peru or Chile or Bolivia, it really doesn’t make sense to search for records that probably don’t exist. So it’s not like people necessarily “choose” to not know their history, it’s more that a good chunk of it was stolen from them.

[wnwnwn]

On topic, there are demonstrations planned for December 20.
https://www.infobae.com/america/agencias/2023/12/16/argentina-vivira-el-20-de-diciembre-una-de-las-marchas-mas-importantes-contra-el-ajuste/

[Red Velvet]

On topic, there are demonstrations planned for December 20.
https://www.infobae.com/america/agencias/2023/12/16/argentina-vivira-el-20-de-diciembre-una-de-las-marchas-mas-importantes-contra-el-ajuste/

Milei is going against the Libertarian playbook and elevating taxes lol

ALONGSIDE all the government cuts he’s making, it will be interesting to watch the short-term effects and how Argentinians react to the shock they’re about to go through.

[Edu]

Imagine disliking someone because they are curious about where their ancestors came from.

[Peeperkorn]

If more people truly knew their nation origins, besides their own too, they would realize we’re all closer as nations to the Global South, not just on an economic level. And that includes Argentina/Uruguay as well.

What percentage of non-European DNA should I have to start identifying myself as a globalsoutherner instead of a westerner?

[Red Velvet]

If more people truly knew their nation origins, besides their own too, they would realize we’re all closer as nations to the Global South, not just on an economic level. And that includes Argentina/Uruguay as well.

What percentage of non-European DNA should I have to start identifying myself as a globalsoutherner instead of a westerner?

Any of it already shows your history is mixed. Even your country Uruguay, the whitest Latin American country, has around 15% of its full ethnic composition being non-European, most of it Indigenous. And regardless of individual DNA, you were brought up in a culture where your nation customs were shaped and influenced BECAUSE of this diversified influence.

Which is something that culturally simply does NOT exist inside the liberal Western world that Latin American whites tend to want to associate themselves with.

Only single Western place where this paradigm is beginning to shift is USA and necessarily because of the rise of the Hispanic population that comes from Latin America.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

I’d rather not pick on Argentinian Jews who are accused of being Nazi descendants due to their last names for knowing about their heritage.

[Peeperkorn]

If more people truly knew their nation origins, besides their own too, they would realize we’re all closer as nations to the Global South, not just on an economic level. And that includes Argentina/Uruguay as well.

What percentage of non-European DNA should I have to start identifying myself as a globalsoutherner instead of a westerner?

And regardless of individual DNA, you were brought up in a culture where your nation customs were shaped and influenced BECAUSE of this diversified influence.

Language? Western.
Religion? Western, including an atheist/agnostic position.
System of Government? Western.
Legal system? Western.
Art, philosophy, literature? Western.
Values concerning gender or sexuality? Western.
Dress code? Western.
Sense of humor? Western.
Cuisine? 99% Western (exception: mate).
Folk music? Western, with some African elements in Montevideo.
Social behavior/expectations? Exactly the same you will find in Mediterranean Europe.

Etc.

And the same could be said about 75% or 80% of Latin American population.

[Aurelius2]

Imagine disliking someone because they are curious about where their ancestors came from.

Such an odd, quotidian form of crab bucket mentality. Many such cases among leftists!

[Aurelius2]

The blue dollar rate dropped a bit after Milei devalued the peso. The discrepancy between the blue dollar rate and the official exchange rate is now around 27%, down from over 160% before Milei's devaluation. Could this soon mean the end of the ruinous currency controls?

[Red Velvet]

Imagine disliking someone because they are curious about where their ancestors came from.

Such an odd, quotidian form of crab bucket mentality. Many such cases among leftists!

I believe the logic from where kaoras comes from when he said that is based on how it’s mostly white people with European ancestry who tend to know and feel “pride” from where they came from, which leads to more identification with European customs and from that to actual white supremacy is just a quick walk to the park.

What I have problem with this logic is that what I believe that turns people into associating themselves with Europe more than with the Global South they actually belong to is NOT white people knowing and being interested on their ancestry and MORE the fact people with non-white ancestry had that history ERASED AND STOLEN from them through assimilation so there’s no easy way for them to have knowledge and be interested about it.

So instead of going by the idea that nobody should have consciousness of their origins and family history, what should be stimulated is for that to be increasingly available to EVERYONE instead so that they would realize how them and their countries were more influenced by non-Western traditions than they imagine.

Here in Brazil we have these projects of family mapping and DNA ancestry tests designed specifically for Afro-Brazilians for example, designed exactly to connect people better with their roots and understand how they came to where they are now.

Kaoras is used to a reality where only whites are entitled to have this kind of access of family information as a privilege, so it’s not outrageous that he resents it at all even if I believe his position is misguided and myopic. I do strongly think whites should have knowledge of their origins simply because HOW people can use that information (there are multiple ways of doing that) has nothing to do with the actual information itself.

The real problem is on how non-white population ISN’T entitled to the exact same type of information and therefore aren’t able to be proud of their own history. Which only feeds structural injustices and oppression because a society without racial consciousness is bound to be assimilated by whatever the elites identify with the most, which is pure whiteness itself.

So the solution is the exact opposite of what they propose. Everyone should have access to history instead of nobody. There are many in Latin America with the instinct to play down or even hide their non-white ancestry, I see it especially with the Indigenous ones. Which makes the continent easy prey for White minorities to dominate by convincing everyone they are mostly Western even if they will never be welcomed as such, it’s purely for the sake of domination and control of minorities.

That wouldn’t happen if people were connected to their ancestry more deeply and better aware of how much non-European culture shaped this continent in a way that defines us as our own unique thing.

If more people truly knew their nation origins, besides their own too, they would realize we’re all closer as nations to the Global South, not just on an economic level. And that includes Argentina/Uruguay as well.

What percentage of non-European DNA should I have to start identifying myself as a globalsoutherner instead of a westerner?

And regardless of individual DNA, you were brought up in a culture where your nation customs were shaped and influenced BECAUSE of this diversified influence.

Language? Western.
Religion? Western, including an atheist/agnostic position.
System of Government? Western.
Legal system? Western.
Art, philosophy, literature? Western.
Values concerning gender or sexuality? Western.
Dress code? Western.
Sense of humor? Western.
Cuisine? 99% Western (exception: mate).
Folk music? Western, with some African elements in Montevideo.
Social behavior/expectations? Exactly the same you will find in Mediterranean Europe.

Etc.

And the same could be said about 75% or 80% of Latin American population.

No one questions how Western influences shaped Latin America at all. However, I think you somewhat underplay Indigenous influence in Uruguay and LARGELY underestimates how Indigenous and African influences shaped Latin America at large in literally all these specific you mention. I definitely wouldn’t categorize Brazil as a “western” country in literally any of them, outside maybe Language?

75% or 80% of Latin Americans you say. Lmao. Maybe that could be true of Uruguay, which is the whitest country, but not reflective of the continent as a whole. Even the language people speak isn’t necessarily the same the colonizers spoke, it suffered adaptations made because of the people who used it, having non-European influences in there too.

Also lmao at the notion that progressive values concerning gender and sexuality is inherently Western. Here in Brazil, we had European Christians forcing Indigenous people to convert to their morals and that’s how homosexuality - which was normalized amongst Indigenous tribes - became persecuted by the Europeans.

If you doubt me, here’s the story of Tibira do Maranhão for you: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibira_do_Maranhão

They also forced stuff like wearing clothes because they saw Indigenous people nudism as perverted. I seriously question this false idea of “European moral superiority” when only now they’re arriving to a place where people already were more than half a millennium ago.

[PSOL]

Brazil is not a Spanish-derived state, barely counts as Latin American based on geographic proximity of itself and its derived nation alone, and its development is far too removed from the historical and demographic trends to count as either a Latin American and even Hispanic nation. Certainly not to the southern cone nations. Notions of recognition of ancestry and political status are more similar to the United States than to Argentina.

Why are we talking about Brazil in a thread about Argentina, worlds apart from it?

On twitter I’m seeing that the president-elect is going to move swiftly to crush any sort of protests to his inauguration. My previous hunch that any sort of non-Peronist is going to try and deal with the opposition by force is realizing.

[Reactionary Libertarian]

If more people truly knew their nation origins, besides their own too, they would realize we’re all closer as nations to the Global South, not just on an economic level. And that includes Argentina/Uruguay as well.

What percentage of non-European DNA should I have to start identifying myself as a globalsoutherner instead of a westerner?

And regardless of individual DNA, you were brought up in a culture where your nation customs were shaped and influenced BECAUSE of this diversified influence.

Language? Western.
Religion? Western, including an atheist/agnostic position.
System of Government? Western.
Legal system? Western.
Art, philosophy, literature? Western.
Values concerning gender or sexuality? Western.
Dress code? Western.
Sense of humor? Western.
Cuisine? 99% Western (exception: mate).
Folk music? Western, with some African elements in Montevideo.
Social behavior/expectations? Exactly the same you will find in Mediterranean Europe.

Etc.

And the same could be said about 75% or 80% of Latin American population.

But much less economic liberalism than the West. Also why they are poorer.

[Edu]

On twitter I’m seeing that the president-elect is going to move swiftly to crush any sort of protests to his inauguration

He was inaugurated one week ago

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

I was going to do a write up on Milei's standing with Congress but before that I've gotta correct some misconceptions that keep floating around

First, Milei is not "crushing all protest". What he's crushing are piquetero marches which intentionally block the road and which are typically populated by people who are only there because they're paid to be there, or because they have their welfare threatened (for some reason welfare in Argentina is managed by explicitly political "social movements" which regularly require people to join their protests to get a cut). I'm pretty sure even Argentine progressives, at least the non-Kirchnerist ones, aren't going to shed any tears over it.

Also I keep seeing people totally mischaracterize the official devaluation as if that was the actual value of the peso. In reality the official rate was only available in tiny quantities to normal people, the big beneficiaries were the politically connected who were effectively subsidized. The "devaluation" narrowed the gap between the "official" peso and the blue dollar and thereby eliminated a pretty substantial drain on dollars from the Central Bank.

[Peeperkorn]

No one questions how Western influences shaped Latin America at all. However, I think you somewhat underplay Indigenous influence in Uruguay and LARGELY underestimates how Indigenous and African influences shaped Latin America at large in literally all these specific you mention. I definitely wouldn’t categorize Brazil as a “western” country in literally any of them, outside maybe Language?

I would agree if you lived in a Maya village on Lake Atitlan or in a Brazilian quilombo but that's probably not the case. Western Culture as a concept isn't as narrow as you think.

[Vice President Christian Man]

Saw this on the godforsaken Argentinian subreddit and I must admit it made me chuckle (click on the link to read the whole tweet):

https://twitter.com/JoshRainerGold/status/1735886234948415544

Ugh, this guy is worse than I thought he was going to be.

[kaoras]

No one questions how Western influences shaped Latin America at all. However, I think you somewhat underplay Indigenous influence in Uruguay and LARGELY underestimates how Indigenous and African influences shaped Latin America at large in literally all these specific you mention. I definitely wouldn’t categorize Brazil as a “western” country in literally any of them, outside maybe Language?

I would agree if you lived in a Maya village on Lake Atitlan or in a Brazilian quilombo but that's probably not the case. Western Culture as a concept isn't as narrow as you think.

So western culture is broad but indigenous culture is very narrow and essentialistic? Funny how that works

I really didn't want to keep derailing this thread but since I've actually been living in Spain the last few months every single day I'm reminded how incorrect is the assertion that the social behavior/ expectations are exactly the same as in Latin America.

And what even is western sense of humour? Maybe you personally find US humour funny but Latin American humour is very distinct from it, let alone from Europe.

Like, we don't even need to talk about vibes and anecdotes. To give an example, I'm a huge box office need and Latin American Box Office behaves in a very different way from the anglosphere and Europe, and movie distributors plan accordingly. If a movie breaks out in Mexico you can be very certain it will also be successful in Chile. That doesn't happen between the US/Europe and the rest of LATAM. Hell, countries like Peru and Colombia behave more similar to South East Asia BO wise than to the traditional western world.

[Red Velvet]

Latin American culture is something of its own, extremely unique, shaped exactly by the mix of all these different influences from all around the world - each country under different degrees, maybe leaning stronger to one specific (More/less Indigenous influence; more/less white western influence) - but all are mixed to some level which makes each of them something entirely different and “new”. Kinda like the exact center balance of the world, that’s how I see LatAm.

It’s not the same development that happened in US (or Canada) at all - where segregationist logic created multiple internal “cultures” instead of creating its own thing. White American culture is something that developed very directly from European culture, only under a different land/geographical/political context.

They also have “Afro-American” culture as a separate thing, which is crazy, there are different ~American~ cultures coexisting under the same place, which is why they tend to lack a cohesive national identity of their own.

They’re like us and not like “European Western” in the sense they also received very significant and quite diverse immigrant influence from all around the world but because these influences never mixed to create one identity, they’re still culturally western in the sense the dominant culture there that holds most power - WASP culture - is related too directly to European customs.

That’s why even Uruguayans - probably the most European-influenced country in LatAm yeah - still aren’t Western as there are Indigenous (and African) influences that were mixed to create who they are, regardless of how European-heavy the outside influence was. Argentina too.

Speaking of Argentina, I’m surprised this ancestry subject still gains more interest in here than everything going on in Argentina right now:

- China froze their “swap” credit to Argentina, after request from Milei not to.

- Milei released a megadecree containing TONS of austere and controversial measures that jurists say that should be decided/voted by congress.

- Not looking like congress wants to approve the megadecree (if a decree simply doesn’t get voted, its measures automatically pass) and could vote against it.

- Massive protests followed against the decree. Videos online of people in front of the congress the entire freaking night until the sun showed itself in the next day.

- Government is intimidating protesters with threats of cutting individual social benefits for people participating in it, blocking the streets. There are some Orwellian videos of government warnings in Buenos Aires train stations of this that would make you think we’re in a Communist or Fascist dictatorial country but it’s actually Argentina.

[Lord Halifax]

So western culture is broad but indigenous culture is very narrow and essentialistic? Funny how that works

Western culture is a very broad and vague term covering a number of cultures that are based on or profoundly influenced by the cultures of the Catholic Western part of Europe (which partly became Protestant later on) where Latin was the prestige language and all their diaspora cultures in settler colonial societies founded by Brits, Spaniards and Portuguese etc. It's broad because it's an "umbrella term" (even in Europe Polish and Portuguese cultures aren't exactly alike). Whereas Indigenous cultures are usually based on a particular indigenous group or a number of closely related groups. There are plenty of modern non-Western "umbrella cultures" like the Indonesian or the Swahili-based in East Africa and the pan-Arabic popular culture (with Egypt as its hub), but they aren't indigenous. Even if Latin American mainstream culture differs from the North American and Western European mainstream culture it is still a variation of Western culture.

[kaoras]

So western culture is broad but indigenous culture is very narrow and essentialistic? Funny how that works

Western culture is a very broad and vague term covering a number of cultures that are based on or profoundly influenced by the cultures of the Catholic Western part of Europe (which partly became Protestant later on) where Latin was the prestige language and all their diaspora cultures in settler colonial societies founded by Brits, Spaniards and Portuguese etc. It's broad because it's an "umbrella term" (even in Europe Polish and Portuguese cultures aren't exactly alike). Whereas Indigenous cultures are usually based on a particular indigenous group or a number of closely related groups. There are plenty of modern non-Western "umbrella cultures" like the Indonesian or the Swahili-based in East Africa and the pan-Arabic popular culture (with Egypt as its hub), but they aren't indigenous. Even if Latin American mainstream culture differs from the North American and Western European mainstream culture it is still a variation of Western culture.

Before coming to Spain and interacting with the horde of Erasmus students from different european and latin american countries I would have been more sympathetic to the claim that Latin American culture is a variation of the western one, but now I'm more convinced than ever than there's an intelligibility between latin americans that doesn't extend to the rest of the west.

Indigenous cultures are unique but the point is that the mix resulted in something totally different.

At the end of the day that is a question that should be answered by latin americans and we will keep arguing about it until the end of times. Peepekorn and I will never agree on this, and there's not much that can be done about it, I'm just dunking on some particularly dumb claims he made.

However, we also shouldn't ignore the fact that the vast majority of the western world does not consider Latin America "western".

[Red Velvet]

Western culture is a very broad and vague term covering a number of cultures that are based on or profoundly influenced by the cultures of the Catholic Western part of Europe (which partly became Protestant later on) where Latin was the prestige language and all their diaspora cultures in settler colonial societies founded by Brits, Spaniards and Portuguese etc. It's broad because it's an "umbrella term" (even in Europe Polish and Portuguese cultures aren't exactly alike). Whereas Indigenous cultures are usually based on a particular indigenous group or a number of closely related groups. There are plenty of modern non-Western "umbrella cultures" like the Indonesian or the Swahili-based in East Africa and the pan-Arabic popular culture (with Egypt as its hub), but they aren't indigenous. Even if Latin American mainstream culture differs from the North American and Western European mainstream culture it is still a variation of Western culture.

No, that’s wrong. There are multiple Indigenous groups here as well (even if you talk for only one country) with internal differences of customs as well.

African slaves that were brought here also came from different parts of Africa and belonged to multiple different tribes even if the erasure of their history makes impossible to track this (though DNA ancestry tests are doing that this day).

The “diversity” you recognize in Europe and European influence exists in the same way for non-white history - the issue is that because your history is better documented, you simply have no knowledge of history from others. And we’re back to the ancestry conversation on how non-white people aren’t entitled to family records or their history because the whitening notion is for them to culturally assimilate into something that resembles the closest possible Western culture.

But their presence in mainstream culture do exist to this day. Feijoada, the most popular Brazilian dish, is the simplified reading that African slaves had of a Portuguese dish where they used simpler and cheaper ingredients in order to feed. Capoeira, a common Brazilian fight/dance came from the Africans as well. Hell, White Catholic Brazilians were even influenced some Afro-Religions like honoring Iemanjá on New Year for good luck.

And unlike Western country of USA, this isn’t part of a separated “Afro-American” culture, this is Brazilian culture where everyone participates and has as their background regardless of their origin.

The Samba dance from Carnaval that Brazil is internationally known for and which westerners always saw us as “exotic” for, has roots from traditions that existed in Congo and Angola and the dynamics if slave trade. It’s literally everywhere and EVERYONE is culturally shaped by those influences and therefore are part of them. White people dance in Carnaval and love Feijoada without being offensive “appropriation” like it would be in a place with a more segregationist background like the USA.

Indigenous cultural influence is smaller in Brazil in comparison to the African (or to how high it is in Hispanic neighbors) but still quite significant. The main differences Brazilian Portuguese has with European Portuguese comes directly from how Indigenous tribes pronounced their words and many words we have here that Portugal doesn’t are of Indigenous tribes origin. I don’t think a Portuguese person would be able to pronounce in their 1st try many popular cities names we have here like “Guaratinguetá” or “Pindamonhangaba”.

Brazilian Folklore is something that is heavily tied to Indigenous culture as well. Most of the legend stories we tell are tied to nature or mythical creatures living in the forests for a reason, they’re adapted from beliefs Indigenous tribes had themselves.

The two showers or more a day custom is something we DEFINITELY inherited from the Indigenous tribes too. Europeans are naturally dirtier because Christianity once told them that showering was “too sexy” and something only Jews and Muslims did, so the Europeans saw their bad smell as a Christian act of sacrifice. Some of the Portuguese leaders that came to Brazil took less than 10 baths in their life.

Indigenous people otoh lived in contact with water all the time and it’s from them we got many of the hygiene obsessions we have, including with the teeth but also going to the body culture we have in the country as a whole and tend to value a lot. Whenever I kissed someone from Europe I would be often turned down by how bad their teeth looked, as if they didn’t take proper care of it. Even while living in SPAIN, which is the closest culturally to LatAm outside of it that you can get - I didn’t really feel like I fully belonged because I missed cultural traditions that just didn’t exist in there.

And all this extreme diversity and mixes of influences happened with Brazil being one of the places in LatAm that received the heaviest Western immigration and influence. Only three other countries in LatAm probably received stronger western share of influence: Cuba; Argentina and Uruguay. And even those have significant manifestations of non-western culture being part of the mainstream culture as well - though you will obviously sometimes a Whitewashing Complex come from Argentina or Uruguay saying they actually all came from the “boats” or something.

If I can create an argument that Brazil 100% is NOT culturally Western then I can definitely extrapolate this to all Latin America as well, where the Indigenous influence is even HEAVIER than here, where it’s already quite significant.

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

Western culture is a very broad and vague term covering a number of cultures that are based on or profoundly influenced by the cultures of the Catholic Western part of Europe (which partly became Protestant later on) where Latin was the prestige language and all their diaspora cultures in settler colonial societies founded by Brits, Spaniards and Portuguese etc. It's broad because it's an "umbrella term" (even in Europe Polish and Portuguese cultures aren't exactly alike). Whereas Indigenous cultures are usually based on a particular indigenous group or a number of closely related groups. There are plenty of modern non-Western "umbrella cultures" like the Indonesian or the Swahili-based in East Africa and the pan-Arabic popular culture (with Egypt as its hub), but they aren't indigenous. Even if Latin American mainstream culture differs from the North American and Western European mainstream culture it is still a variation of Western culture.

And unlike Western country of USA, this isn’t part of a separated “Afro-American” culture, this is Brazilian culture where everyone participates and has as their background regardless of their origin.

Have you ever even been to the US? I feel like you think America is some kind of underdeveloped sh**thole compared to the shining utopia that is Belo Horizonte.

[dead0man]

or that "Afro-American" culture isn't a large and integral part of modern American culture.

[Red Velvet]

Western culture is a very broad and vague term covering a number of cultures that are based on or profoundly influenced by the cultures of the Catholic Western part of Europe (which partly became Protestant later on) where Latin was the prestige language and all their diaspora cultures in settler colonial societies founded by Brits, Spaniards and Portuguese etc. It's broad because it's an "umbrella term" (even in Europe Polish and Portuguese cultures aren't exactly alike). Whereas Indigenous cultures are usually based on a particular indigenous group or a number of closely related groups. There are plenty of modern non-Western "umbrella cultures" like the Indonesian or the Swahili-based in East Africa and the pan-Arabic popular culture (with Egypt as its hub), but they aren't indigenous. Even if Latin American mainstream culture differs from the North American and Western European mainstream culture it is still a variation of Western culture.

And unlike Western country of USA, this isn’t part of a separated “Afro-American” culture, this is Brazilian culture where everyone participates and has as their background regardless of their origin.

Have you ever even been to the US? I feel like you think America is some kind of underdeveloped sh**thole compared to the shining utopia that is Belo Horizonte.

Excuse me, but what does any of that has to do with racial/cultural history and relations? Which is the actual subject being discussed.

You always seem to take people in the 3rd world not having an inferiority complex so personally that I think it reflects your own insecurities about your own country. Nobody is even talking about the US other than using it as a way to explain how the Latin American background is inherently different and unique due to the miscegenation.

Whereas in US, though it’s also a country in Americas that received tons of influences beyond just Western, it’s inherently different because of the logic of historical segregation. The own internal logic of “appropriation” implies that there are many customs that belong to a specific group and don’t belong to others inside the same country.

Which is something that cannot be applied to LatAm at all, as all these mixed influences are so ingrained in people’s everyday lives that they don’t even see it as “Western” or “Afro” culture, but one of the country as a whole.

US has all these SEPARATED cultural bubbles. All part of “American culture” yeah but none really widely representing the entire nation as a whole, which is why people outside tend to see US as not having a cohesive national identity or culture. It takes something from everywhere while being unable to create an unique identity of its own where everyone feels they belong to.