I Have Officially Left the RCC

[JSojourner]

I know it might be hard for a lot of you to believe, but after a number of things that have happened, both within me and with the outside world, I finally decided that I am no longer a member of the Roman Catholic Church.  I am not joining another Church at this time, nor do I plan to do so anytime soon.  Frankly, I choose to remain an Independent.  For the sake of family unity and tradition (at least this is tradition in my family, in the space of 200 years, my family went from being fullout Calvinists to Catholics based on who the men married), if I do ever get married, I will probably just join my wife's church, whatever she may be (as long as she isn't a Southern Baptist).  They will have my money and my help, but they won't have my mind.

Over the past few years, I have become very disallusioned with organized religion as a whole.  MY own views of faith have liberalized considerably.  I still believe in God, and Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, but I can't bring myself to allign with all but the loosest doctrines of faith, since they all seem to be desinged more to be exclusive than inclusive, and I don't think that's what Christ wanted.

The Catholic clergy are of particular concern to me in this area.  I'm nto talking about pedaphilia, though that might have been the start of my process.  I am refering to their seeming lack of true understanding and true commitment to the faith.  Back in Central, PA we had a number of very good, very respectable preists.  In my travels, however, I have discovered that that seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

Most preists here in Erie are either super-Liberal freaks who are nothing but social workers with a collar, or they are totally disconnected from even thier parish community, let alone the community as a whole.  The Bishop in particular worries me.  I can't see how a Church that is influnced by the Holy Spirit any more than anyother Christian Church could ever make our Bishop a leader of the faith.

I had not gone to Mass in over 6 months until a few weeks ago when I went out of curtisy to my friends and to show them that I wasn't becoming evil (as my family seems to think) but I just honestly had a hardtime applying my faith to a Catholic setting.  On the way in, I made a joke about how chances were they woudl just talk abotu money... and low and behold, after the Readings (which concerned the "One Body") the priest luanched into a talk about how they needed money for the Stewardship Appeal.  They was no mention of the readings at all.  Afterwards... I refused to go to communion out of respect for a Chruch I no longer have full faith in and as we left, the fact that I was right in my prediction and that I was the only one who remembered the readings somehow made me an asshole to my friends.

That was pretty much it, but until now, I was not prepared to make any real announcment.  I am sure of it now.

Anyway... just thought you guys might find this suprising.

Oddly enough... I don't feel joy.  My Irish ancestors were starved, beat up and killed for this faith... I hate to think that I am dishonoring them, but I have to do what I feel is right at the moment.

Your story, Soulty, sounds a lot like mine...only partially in reverse.  I didn't end up in the RCC.  I ended up Episcopalian (Anglican).  But I started in a seriously fundamentalist tradition.  And I attended a staunch, Calvinst Bible College.

Just hang in there, listen, pray, study and be patient with yourself. 

And know you're more than welcome on the Canterbury Trail if you have a mind.  ;-)

[JSojourner]

We should install some sort of filter that prohibits jmfcst from quoting the Bible.

well, if you need a filter, you could cover your ears if you no longer what to hear that Jesus is the only way to God.

Given that I can't hear anything on this forum, I no longer want to see that Jesus is the only way to God.  Let me guess; I should shut my eyes and start typing randomly?

Hmm, I'm actually kinda curious.  Let's try it:

djoy i[ uoi nptiem yt;rojpv myuivsdr; kphbdu vstrd snpuy uipit fivclomh \\\\\nioble.

Actually, there are some church services where the above sentence would make complete sense.

Repeat after me:  Shecomeonahonda...shecomeonahonda...

[DownWithTheLeft]

how liberal the church has become

LOL!!!!

In many ways it has, Harry.

Give some examples.

We don't excommunicate people for having abortions, we don't deny communions to ppl who make a career out of being pro-choice, and the sermons are not about conservative Catholic values

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

Catholicism gives its parishes/dioceses a large amount of autonomy in how it pursues such issues. Those issues don't play well in the western nations so they don't play it up in NJ.

[Ebowed]

We don't excommunicate people for having abortions

If someone who has an abortion can go to heaven, why would the church excommunicate such people?

[afleitch]

If the RCC started excommunicating people for going against church teaching on any matter there wouldn't be many people left. If it did threaten to do so, then I would leave.

[DownWithTheLeft]

My point remains to the RCC if they want to actually acheieve salvation:

STOP PANDERING

[minionofmidas]

What is wrong with Islam? (not radical Islam, of course)

1) Islam denies that Jesus is the only begotten son of God.
2) Islam denies that Jesus was crucified.
3) Islam denies that Jesus was resurrected.

False on the second charge.

Islam clearly teaches that Jesus did not die on the cross and that they crucified an imposter poising as Jesus:

"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge;  That they said (in boast):  'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.'  But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.." Quran 4:156-158

Wow. That's pretty much directly out of the gnostics' teachings, isn't it?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

has anyone heard from Keystone Phil since his last post in this thread?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Islam clearly teaches that Jesus did not die on the cross and that they crucified an imposter poising as Jesus:

"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge;  That they said (in boast):  'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.'  But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.." Quran 4:156-158

Wow. That's pretty much directly out of the gnostics' teachings, isn't it?

I wouldn't know, I don't know anything about the gnostics' teachings.  I am ignorant of opinions other than my own.  Not that that's a good thing.

[minionofmidas]

Checking my own Quran... the point of the passage is not that what was nailed to the cross wasn't Jesus, but that Jesus wasn't dead when he was taken off the cross. Not gnostic-influenced then. More like influenced by the Gospel of Mark.
And the "those who differ therein" bit refers to Jews and Christians as opposed to each other.

[Keystone Phil]

has anyone heard from Keystone Phil since his last post in this thread?

No, I died.

how liberal the church has become

LOL!!!!

In many ways it has, Harry.

Give some examples.

Many people believe that our whole way of worship has liberalized (please note that I am not talking about liberal in the sense that the Church has changed its position on issues like abortion, marriage, etc.). Liberalizing mass has been a topic of debate for some time now. Examples of that liberalization would be not using Latin, allowing Saturday evening mass (which I love and almost always attend), etc.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Examples of that liberalization would be not using Latin

Are you referring to speaking Latin or are you referring to the Latin Mass?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

has anyone heard from Keystone Phil since his last post in this thread?

No, I died.

how liberal the church has become

LOL!!!!

In many ways it has, Harry.

Give some examples.

Many people believe that our whole way of worship has liberalized (please note that I am not talking about liberal in the sense that the Church has changed its position on issues like abortion, marriage, etc.). Liberalizing mass has been a topic of debate for some time now. Examples of that liberalization would be not using Latin, allowing Saturday evening mass (which I love and almost always attend), etc.

So some people think the church has gotten too liberal by doing mass in a language people can actually understand? That sounds like plain old common sense to me.

What's so special about Latin anyway? Jesus didn't speak it.

[Cubby]

Is it not true that most Catholics don't accept all the doctrine of the Church anyway? That is what I have always heard.

Very few of the Northeast Catholics do. It started when the pill came along in 1960. After that first step, it became easier to defy the Church on other issues. As the rest of America became more religious and conservative in the 1970's and 80's, Catholics were moving in the other direction.

As a former Catholic, I disagree with the church on social issues, but I believe that it is more liberal than many give it credit for. Until his last few years, John Paul II was compassionate towards, though not accepting, of gays. I understand that the Church moves slowly and can't cast aside centuries worth of dogma in just a few decades.

I'm worried that if the Anglican communion breaks up over one gay priest, some American lapsed Catholics will join the Episopalian Church more as a political statement rather than being true believers.

The main reason I don't go to church has nothing to do with faith or values, its that I am a late sleeper and don't like getting up early on Sunday mornings. I still believe in God, I just don't need to sit in a roomful of homophobes once a week to acknowledge that.

[Bono]

Is it not true that most Catholics don't accept all the doctrine of the Church anyway? That is what I have always heard.

Very few of the Northeast Catholics do. It started when the pill came along in 1960. After that first step, it became easier to defy the Church on other issues. As the rest of America became more religious and conservative in the 1970's and 80's, Catholics were moving in the other direction.

As a former Catholic, I disagree with the church on social issues, but I believe that it is more liberal than many give it credit for. Until his last few years, John Paul II was compassionate towards, though not accepting, of gays. I understand that the Church moves slowly and can't cast aside centuries worth of dogma in just a few decades.

I'm worried that if the Anglican communion breaks up over one gay priest, some American lapsed Catholics will join the Episopalian Church more as a political statement rather than being true believers.

The main reason I don't go to church has nothing to do with faith or values, its that I am a late sleeper and don't like getting up early on Sunday mornings. I still believe in God, I just don't need to sit in a roomful of homophobes once a week to acknowledge that.

Ever heard of evening services?

[afleitch]

Evening services in my church start at 5pm. A bad time if you only finish work at that time. Move it to 6 and the pensioners complain.

[minionofmidas]

Well, you can always go to midnight mass.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I still believe in God, I just don't need to sit in a roomful of homophobes once a week to acknowledge that.

Yeah, Not to mention that those homophobes are also murderphobes, adulterphobes, haterphobes, thiefphobes, fornicatorphobes, idolaterphobes, liarphobes, and on and on and on.  In fact, they’re afraid of their own shadows.

But as for belief in God, it does not save anyone.

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. (James 2:19)

[Cubby]

Ever heard of evening services?

I've heard of them, I haven't been to my church in so long I have no idea if they have them.

And Lewis, Midnight Mass only happens once a year, on Christmas Eve.

[Keystone Phil]

Examples of that liberalization would be not using Latin

Are you referring to speaking Latin or are you referring to the Latin Mass?

Speaking Latin during the mass.

So some people think the church has gotten too liberal by doing mass in a language people can actually understand? That sounds like plain old common sense to me.

What's so special about Latin anyway? Jesus didn't speak it.

For once, can you try your hardest not to throw in an assinine remark? I honestly don't care that you don't like Latin in the mass. I don't like it either and I'd be directly affected if it was implemented but I don't whine about it like you do and it doesn't even concern you.

Whether you like it or not, removing Latin from the mass, whether a good move or not, is a form of liberalization of our celebration.

[JSojourner]

Ever heard of evening services?

I've heard of them, I haven't been to my church in so long I have no idea if they have them.

And Lewis, Midnight Mass only happens once a year, on Christmas Eve.

In the Episcopal Church, we have a Christmas Eve mass (usually a 7 p.m. service AND an 11 p.m. service).  Then, there is sometimes a midnight service called The Great Vigil of Easter.  It is one of the most powerful and beautiful services you will ever attend, if done right.  The Orthodox probably do it best, however.  (And have the best food afterward!)

[12th Doctor]

Couple of points I would like to make... even though I left the RCC I will defend it from unfair attacks.

#1 For the 40,000,000th f***ing time, Latin is a FORMAT for Mass... the Mass doesn't need to be done in Latin to be a Latin Mass.  The readings from the scriptures were NEVER done in Latin (at least not in modern times) and nor was the sermon... only the parts that are repeated every single Mass... older people I talk to say that they understood it just fine, because they heard it their whole lives.  It seems that only people who were young during the era when the transition was made complain about not being able to understand it.  Second, the whole rationale for using Latin was so that a Catholic could go anywhere in the world and still understand what was going on.  It was UNIVERSAL... which is what the word "Catholic" means.

#2 What kinda backwords area do you live in that you can't find a time to attend Mass?  Erie is only a small city and we have Masses that run pretty much around the clock from Saturday night to Sunday at 7:00PM.  There is always at least one Church having Mass during that time period in the area... you just have to not be lazy and acctually look for one.  I know the situation almost anywhere in Europe is the same.  "I can't get up on Sunday" is no excuse.

[Keystone Phil]

Couple of points I would like to make... even though I left the RCC I will defend it from unfair attacks.

#1 For the 40,000,000th f***ing time, Latin is a FORMAT for Mass... the Mass doesn't need to be done in Latin to be a Latin Mass.  The readings from the scriptures were NEVER done in Latin (at least not in modern times) and nor was the sermon... only the parts that are repeated every single Mass... older people I talk to say that they understood it just fine, because they heard it their whole lives.  It seems that only people who were young during the era when the transition was made complain about not being able to understand it.  Second, the whole rationale for using Latin was so that a Catholic could go anywhere in the world and still understand what was going on.  It was UNIVERSAL... which is what the word "Catholic" means.

#2 What kinda backwords area do you live in that you can't find a time to attend Mass?  Erie is only a small city and we have Masses that run pretty much around the clock from Saturday night to Sunday at 7:00PM.  There is always at least one Church having Mass during that time period in the area... you just have to not be lazy and acctually look for one.  I know the situation almost anywhere in Europe is the same.  "I can't get up on Sunday" is no excuse.

Amen.

You should have known that certain people were going to spew their ignorance, Super.

[Chiahead]

Couple of points I would like to make... even though I left the RCC I will defend it from unfair attacks.

#1 For the 40,000,000th f***ing time, Latin is a FORMAT for Mass... the Mass doesn't need to be done in Latin to be a Latin Mass.  The readings from the scriptures were NEVER done in Latin (at least not in modern times) and nor was the sermon... only the parts that are repeated every single Mass... older people I talk to say that they understood it just fine, because they heard it their whole lives.  It seems that only people who were young during the era when the transition was made complain about not being able to understand it.  Second, the whole rationale for using Latin was so that a Catholic could go anywhere in the world and still understand what was going on.  It was UNIVERSAL... which is what the word "Catholic" means.

#2 What kinda backwords area do you live in that you can't find a time to attend Mass?  Erie is only a small city and we have Masses that run pretty much around the clock from Saturday night to Sunday at 7:00PM.  There is always at least one Church having Mass during that time period in the area... you just have to not be lazy and acctually look for one.  I know the situation almost anywhere in Europe is the same.  "I can't get up on Sunday" is no excuse.

I knew that didn't like the church in Erie, but there is always byzantine!