Mass shooting at LGBT nightclub in Orlando.

[Sir Mohamed]

I'm just appalled by this script that gets trotted out whenever something like this happens that if somebody does something horrible then they must be mentally ill, so clearly some sort of improvements to mental health treatment (which, granted, are necessary, just not necessarily for this reason) would have prevented it. Has the American right seriously talked itself into thinking this way? What happened to personal responsibility for one's actions? What happened to not trusting rationalized institutions like the psychiatric profession to come to all the decisions about people's lives? It's just amazing to me that those philosophical presuppositions are getting contorted to conform to the predetermined reflexively pro-gun Issues stance, rather than letting the Issues stances flow out of the philosophical presuppositions. It shouldn't surprise me but it does. It's the only thing about this whole argument that does any more.

Nobody on the American right is calling this mental illness. Theyre calling it Islamic terrorism.

Well, honestly, I consider radical islam a form of mental illness.

[Taco Truck 🚚]

Nathan,

I understand your argument, and no he isn't legally 'mentally ill'.

I am just saying he's a few french fries short of a happy meal with room temperature IQ.

It looks as though he was not treated or prosecuted for domestic battery which would have helped to prevent this massacre.

You have to actually report a crime for it to be known.

Not just report it.  It has to go through a full blown trial, a conviction, and be upheld on appeal and then it is officially a crime.  Anything short of that is just idle gossip.

I'm all for women's rights but saying disgruntled exwives are the final arbiters of the Constitutional rights for men is going a bit far.  I've had the displeasure of witnessing some divorces up close and the malicious lies told in court under oath were breathtaking.  Thank God there was a judge there to put the brakes on other party.

[Kevin]

leftists are really starting to be exposed you cant have it both ways.  Defending a religion that is strongly anti-gay as they are killing thousands of homosexuals in the middle east, throwing men off buildings and other horrible things.  You then claim "Christianity" is the problem which doesn't even compare with atrocities the Muslim religion is doing RIGHT NOW.   Not only that, but you want to open borders and allow more into this country.  The response is to blame that awful 2nd amendment and some fantasy "assault weapon" whatever that means.   

Whats happening within Islam right now is like the 1930s with Hitler. Failure to acknowledge a evil before it gets out of control. 

The response from the President and progressives in general to what happened in both San Bernardino and Orlando shows that they are totally out to lunch on how to fight terrorism.

Afterall what did "gun control" and the "insidious NRA boogeyman" have to do wth ether the Paris Attacks or the 7/7 bombings for instance?

My point is that people motivated by extremist ideologies*whether it's ISIS or not) aren't going to be stopped by something like an "assault weapons ban."

The Democrats in general are just doubling down on the "gun control as counter-terrorism" drivel because they don't want to have a discussion on how Obama's strategy on fighting ISIS influence has failed.

Plus as even some posters on the left in this thread mentioned "they don't want to offend people." Which is absurd as well considering many mainstream Muslims harshly criticize the radical violent element within the religion.

[Taco Truck 🚚]

The response from the President and progressives in general to what happened in both San Bernardino and Orlando shows that they are totally out to lunch on how to fight terrorism.

Afterall what did "gun control" and the "insidious NRA boogeyman" have to do wth ether the Paris Attacks or the 7/7 bombings for instance?

Belgium historically has had weaker gun laws which is why when it comes to criminality and terrorism guns can be traced back to Belgium.  And as far as the NRA is concerned they are a mouth piece for gun manufactures.  Belgium didn't have liberal gun laws because its citizens love freedom.  Belgium had lax gun laws because of its local gun manufacturers.... that's the parallel with the NRA's lobbying.

It's the same reason we can have stricter gun laws in Chicago and still have violence.  Think of Mississippi as America's Belgium.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/01/29/us/where-50000-guns-in-chicago-came-from.html

Do you understand the analogy now?

Also you do realize that this guy literally spent about a week planning this, if that, and managed to single handedly kill 50 people.  The Paris attacks involved international teams of people and months if not years of planning and preparation.  If you have a situation where things are so locked down you need years of planning and an international team of operators to launch your attack that gives law enforcement a lot more opportunities to disrupt the plot.  If all someone has to do when they are having a bad day is go to a gun show and buy an AR-15 on a whim then mow people down you simply cannot defend against that.

You are never going to have perfection in anything.  But that isn't a reason not to try.  If the number of mass killings was cut in half and the number of people at those killings was cut in half that would be a ton of lives saved.

[Blair]

leftists are really starting to be exposed you cant have it both ways.  Defending a religion that is strongly anti-gay as they are killing thousands of homosexuals in the middle east, throwing men off buildings and other horrible things.  You then claim "Christianity" is the problem which doesn't even compare with atrocities the Muslim religion is doing RIGHT NOW.   Not only that, but you want to open borders and allow more into this country.  The response is to blame that awful 2nd amendment and some fantasy "assault weapon" whatever that means.   

Whats happening within Islam right now is like the 1930s with Hitler. Failure to acknowledge a evil before it gets out of control. 

Equally hypocritical that some on the right who A.) Saw HIV/AIDS as a punishment from God B.) Opposed making homosexuality legal C.) Have fought against every inch of LGBT progress for the last 30 years.

As someone who is gay, and from a city that just elected a Muslim Mayor I know that the two conceptions are not exclusive. I can critique both Islamic countries, and America. I don't understand why so many say 'but muh Saudi Arabia'. I know these countries are awful.

And no- we don't want open borders. (Not that this case has anything to do with open borders)

[Taco Truck 🚚]

Whats happening within Islam right now is like the 1930s with Hitler. Failure to acknowledge a evil before it gets out of control. 

What specifically would you like done?  I mean how many Muslim countries would you like the Democratic president to unilaterally bomb without Congressional approval?  How many Muslims would you like the Democratic president to unilaterally kill without a trial?  How many German cities did we lay to waste prior to WWII?  How many of Hitler's lieutenants did we assassinate prior to WWII?

I'm fairly sure if Obama launched a missile into your car on your way home from church killing you and your son your family wouldn't say Obama was "ignoring" you.

We could change tactics or add a bit more resources here and there but to claim that we are just sitting here passive like the lead up to WWII is ridiculous.

WWII didn't happen because we "ignored" Hitler.  WWII happened because of reckless violence and callous disregard for human life.  If we and our allies behaved properly after WWI Hitler would have died as a complete nobody.  Obama's wars and assassinations are deeply unpopular in many parts of the world.  He has an explosive situation on his hands.  He is trying to do the Teddy Roosevelt, "speak softly and carry a big stick."

[All Along The Watchtower]

Absolutely horrific event. Though hopefully this massacre makes more people think twice about condemning gay people.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

It's really crazy how many right-wingera feel public policy should be driven by their feelings and 'what makes them feel better'. That, or they sincerely believe that 'politucal correctness' has a deep or important influence to the state aperatus and its affiliates, which is cute.

[All Along The Watchtower]

As I posted on AAD, I'm really wondering why these mass shootings really took off in the 80s and especially the 90s. It's not like guns weren't previously easily available...

[RaphaelDLG]

As I posted on AAD, I'm really wondering why these mass shootings really took off in the 80s and especially the 90s. It's not like guns weren't previously easily available...

Urbanization?  Media?

[Taco Truck 🚚]

As I posted on AAD, I'm really wondering why these mass shootings really took off in the 80s and especially the 90s. It's not like guns weren't previously easily available...

The country wasn't flooded with AR-15s in the 80s.  The actual rate of gun ownership in America has declined.  But the number of guns gun nuts own has skyrocketed.  The average gunning owning household has over 8 guns!  That's DOUBLE the number from the mid 90s.  And remember that is an average.  So there are plenty of households where the number of guns lying around is in the double digits.  Paranoia and hoarding are going up.

Also no Youtube celeberties in the 80s and 90s.
No people making millions by being famous for being famous.
No or very little internet.  The internet has expanded knowledge both good and bad.  Want to make a bomb?  Google it.  Want to self radicalize?  Google it.  Want to see what all the racists and bigots are saying?  Log in to Atlas.

[All Along The Watchtower]

They get to keep their precious toys while the bodies continue to pile up. Plus, they are never held accountable (except by liberals who no one listens to anyway) and instead, get to blame the rampages on "mental illness" or, in cases like this Orlando massacre, on teh Musselmen.

There is no "debate." They have already won. Well played, gun fetishists.

[Sbane]

I'm just appalled by this script that gets trotted out whenever something like this happens that if somebody does something horrible then they must be mentally ill, so clearly some sort of improvements to mental health treatment (which, granted, are necessary, just not necessarily for this reason) would have prevented it. Has the American right seriously talked itself into thinking this way? What happened to personal responsibility for one's actions? What happened to not trusting rationalized institutions like the psychiatric profession to come to all the decisions about people's lives? It's just amazing to me that those philosophical presuppositions are getting contorted to conform to the predetermined reflexively pro-gun Issues stance, rather than letting the Issues stances flow out of the philosophical presuppositions. It shouldn't surprise me but it does. It's the only thing about this whole argument that does any more.

Nobody on the American right is calling this mental illness. Theyre calling it Islamic terrorism.

Yes, it's only "mental illness" to conservatives when it's non-Muslims shooting up the place.

Do you honestly think this was a case of "mental illness"?

Do you think Dylan Roof was mentally ill? If so, why is he mentally ill and this guy is not.

[Mr. Reactionary]

[dead0man]

There is no "debate." They have already won. Well played, gun fetishists.

Indeed.  Not sure why you guys still feel the need to insult non-criminals every time it happens if you're aware of this fact.

[MK]

Whats happening within Islam right now is like the 1930s with Hitler. Failure to acknowledge a evil before it gets out of control. 

What specifically would you like done?  I mean how many Muslim countries would you like the Democratic president to unilaterally bomb without Congressional approval?  How many Muslims would you like the Democratic president to unilaterally kill without a trial?  How many German cities did we lay to waste prior to WWII?  How many of Hitler's lieutenants did we assassinate prior to WWII?

I'm fairly sure if Obama launched a missile into your car on your way home from church killing you and your son your family wouldn't say Obama was "ignoring" you.

We could change tactics or add a bit more resources here and there but to claim that we are just sitting here passive like the lead up to WWII is ridiculous.

WWII didn't happen because we "ignored" Hitler.  WWII happened because of reckless violence and callous disregard for human life.  If we and our allies behaved properly after WWI Hitler would have died as a complete nobody.  Obama's wars and assassinations are deeply unpopular in many parts of the world.  He has an explosive situation on his hands.  He is trying to do the Teddy Roosevelt, "speak softly and carry a big stick."

Well, this should really make is feel safe . Hes got 7 months left as president and we continue to be attacked.  Looks like its just soft talking. 

[LashedByLeip'sLackeys]

As I posted on AAD, I'm really wondering why these mass shootings really took off in the 80s and especially the 90s. It's not like guns weren't previously easily available...

As a society descends into acceptance of sin, it becomes slothy.  Then, lacking morals and clear goals, it becomes restless.  Later, as one sinful generation begets another, follows madness and death.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

I'm just appalled by this script that gets trotted out whenever something like this happens that if somebody does something horrible then they must be mentally ill, so clearly some sort of improvements to mental health treatment (which, granted, are necessary, just not necessarily for this reason) would have prevented it. Has the American right seriously talked itself into thinking this way? What happened to personal responsibility for one's actions? What happened to not trusting rationalized institutions like the psychiatric profession to come to all the decisions about people's lives? It's just amazing to me that those philosophical presuppositions are getting contorted to conform to the predetermined reflexively pro-gun Issues stance, rather than letting the Issues stances flow out of the philosophical presuppositions. It shouldn't surprise me but it does. It's the only thing about this whole argument that does any more.

Nobody on the American right is calling this mental illness. Theyre calling it Islamic terrorism.

Yes, it's only "mental illness" to conservatives when it's non-Muslims shooting up the place.

Do you honestly think this was a case of "mental illness"?

Do you think Dylan Roof was mentally ill? If so, why is he mentally ill and this guy is not.

Dylan Roof is a domestic terrorist and should be tried as such. In fact, I'd argue that there was more cause to prevent Roof from buying a gun than Mateeb (as Wolf pretty much outright said he was going to do something in Charleston on his blog IIRC).

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

I am pretty happy that the constitution is stronger than an Islamist radical and the knee-jerk reactions of teary-eyed liberals, if that counts?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I'm just appalled by this script that gets trotted out whenever something like this happens that if somebody does something horrible then they must be mentally ill, so clearly some sort of improvements to mental health treatment (which, granted, are necessary, just not necessarily for this reason) would have prevented it. Has the American right seriously talked itself into thinking this way? What happened to personal responsibility for one's actions? What happened to not trusting rationalized institutions like the psychiatric profession to come to all the decisions about people's lives? It's just amazing to me that those philosophical presuppositions are getting contorted to conform to the predetermined reflexively pro-gun Issues stance, rather than letting the Issues stances flow out of the philosophical presuppositions. It shouldn't surprise me but it does. It's the only thing about this whole argument that does any more.

Nobody on the American right is calling this mental illness. Theyre calling it Islamic terrorism.

Well, honestly, I consider radical islam a form of mental illness.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Shooter's Dad, Seddique Mateen, makes new anti-gay video two days after massacre.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/13/orlando-nightclub-shooters-dad-condemns-homosexuality-in-new-video.html?intcmp=hpbt1

He wants to be the President of Afghanistan in the USA.

I think we have found the source of the problem.

From CBSNews.com

"The Orlando gay club gunman's father has well-known anti-American views and is an ideological supporter of the Afghan Taliban."

"In his Facebook videos, the alleged gunman's father has often appeared wearing a military uniform and declaring himself the leader of a "transitional revolutionary government" of Afghanistan. He claims to have his own intelligence agency and close ties to the U.S. Congress -- assets he says he will use to subvert Pakistani influence and take control of Afghanistan.

After watching his videos -- none of which were recorded in English -- CBS News' Ahmad Mukhtar said it seemed possible that Seddique Mateen is delusional. "He thinks he runs a government in exile and will soon take the power in Kabul in a revolution," notes Mukhtar."

[Sbane]

I'm just appalled by this script that gets trotted out whenever something like this happens that if somebody does something horrible then they must be mentally ill, so clearly some sort of improvements to mental health treatment (which, granted, are necessary, just not necessarily for this reason) would have prevented it. Has the American right seriously talked itself into thinking this way? What happened to personal responsibility for one's actions? What happened to not trusting rationalized institutions like the psychiatric profession to come to all the decisions about people's lives? It's just amazing to me that those philosophical presuppositions are getting contorted to conform to the predetermined reflexively pro-gun Issues stance, rather than letting the Issues stances flow out of the philosophical presuppositions. It shouldn't surprise me but it does. It's the only thing about this whole argument that does any more.

Nobody on the American right is calling this mental illness. Theyre calling it Islamic terrorism.

Yes, it's only "mental illness" to conservatives when it's non-Muslims shooting up the place.

Do you honestly think this was a case of "mental illness"?

Do you think Dylan Roof was mentally ill? If so, why is he mentally ill and this guy is not.

Dylan Roof is a domestic terrorist and should be tried as such. In fact, I'd argue that there was more cause to prevent Roof from buying a gun than Mateeb (as Wolf pretty much outright said he was going to do something in Charleston on his blog IIRC).

As long as we treat them both the same I have no problem with it. I think people who are capable of doing such acts, even in the name of a religion or ideology, have something deeply wrong with them. Doesn't mean they could actually get diagnosed with a mental illness but you can't be all there if you can perpetrate atrocities like this.

[Iosif]

This is beginning to sound more like a self-loathing closet case and less like an ISIS attack.

It's horribly sad that gay Muslims are too often taught to hate themselves.