muon2's Diplomacy game

[NOVA Green]

Just to be clear, I do not consider myself a Diplomacy expert. I don't regularly play and if I ever read any strategy guide I long ago forgot what it said. There are things to be said in favor of both a strict and a relaxed game, but given my level of interest it's clear where I stand. It's also why I made clear from the start my intention to only be a temporary , and why I took the soonest opportunity to engage in an excuse to depart.

Come back True Federalist, the rules aren't that complicated (You already know them for sure, but slightly foggy on the details like many of the rest of us) and if you have any questions regarding some of the slightly more nuanced items such as naming convention for movements, convoy orders, etc, I'm sure Muon2 would be more than willing if you PM him to clarify (based upon the modified 5.0 Internet rules), if there is any questions on your part.

We miss you already, and despite the confusion over the posting of movements, you already have the key elements of the game under your belt (Diplomatic discussions, broader strategic picture, etc)....

Honestly your intended movements in Spring '02 was a surprise to all players that created a massive *RESET* moment, in a game where every single action (or in this case intended action) impacts the entire game.

The "Caretaker Government role" was well played and quite frankly IMHO (Very Rusty player speaking here so insert massive doses of salt) the moves might well have succeed in creating a massive strategic advantage for England going into the Mid-Game (Depending upon the next 4-8 Moves of all players).

Stick it out for a little longer, and you'll remember why you enjoyed playing the game back in the days, as I have who has not played in over 20 Years in a "Beer and Pretzel Night" type of Board Gaming session.

Petition to Bring Back True Federalist

x NoVA GREEN

[OBD]

I'm sorry to lose England again. In Spring 1901 Germany submitted an illegal move and Ber had to hold. Same thing with England this turn. It's not normal play, but I can notify the player of any illegal moves so that the moves can be amended. Is that what players want?

I support that.  It's the same thing the email Diplomacy judges do if a player submits an invalid order.

I did not know that. In other online and face to face games I've played, illegal moves are covered by the rules as orders to hold.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Note that the rules cover illegal orders differently than poorly written moves that are unambiguous, which are interpreted in favor of the player. For example England wrote "F Nor supports F Swe holding", and Nor isn't technically the abbreviation of any province (it could be Norway, North Sea or North Atlantic Ocean). Since there was only one of those three (nwy) that could support swe, it was interpreted that way.

As with other suggestions, if all other players want a house rule change to notify players of an illegal order submitted, we can do that.

I'm actually sympathetic and in agreement with Muon2 on this:

1.) As an individual who started playing D&D 2nd Edition almost 30 Years ago in live sessions, the DM/GM sets down the rules, and players are expected to abide by the rules.

2.) It is not the responsibility of the DM/GM to micro-manage individual players, when it comes to their individual decisions....

Any questions? DM/GM should respond in a private manner regarding any interpretation of the rules.

3.) Muon2 has invested a significant amount of his free time to host the game, and honestly should he be responsible to check up on every player's moves that are illegal and get clarification, especially within fixed timelines for players to submit moves?

4.) The GM did clearly state the Rules at the very beginning of the thread, which I have conscientiously reviewed to ensure my actions are compliant with Game Rules, so in theory it should be on the player to review and ask questions to the GM prior to posting any Movements or Actions (As I have done).

5.) In Diplomacy Tournament Games, there are situations where players will deliberately write illegal orders to confuse their opponents.... honestly I suspected that Germany might have done that on the first turn of this game (Although that is obviously not the case based upon what I know now).

6.) Fundamentally, I guess the individual players should ask do they want a "slop diplomacy" like a "slop pool" game, and create a constant GM intervention to divine the intentions of individual players regarding any moves that might appear illogical, or do we want a game where players are more engaged, spend a bit more time looking at the rules of Diplomacy 5.0, and react accordingly, and accept the individual consequences of poor choices and lack of attention to fundamental details of the game.

7.) Germany took their hits from their mistakes of '01.... We had a stand in for England providing "strategic advice" who made mistakes regarding fundamentals of the game.

Meanwhile we have a Newbie to the Game Knute Buehler from Oregon, who is taking this all in stride as a reluctant player who thought the Game was too difficult, who took over Russia under difficult circumstances.

8.) I'll go along with whatever the rest of y'all want to do, since I would much rather actually have a chance to play Diplomacy again after a few Decades, but my fundamental question would be:

To what extent should Muon2 babysit us, when the rules are clearly posted, and we can all collectively consume  "Wine, Cheese, and Smoke", and just move forward....

As the least-experienced player I probably would support notifications of illegal moves, because I'm the one most likely to make screwups.

Also I join the petition to bring back TrueFederalists.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

I'm in Knute Buehler's boat, and given there are at least two first-time Diplomacy players here, it may be conducive to game play to notify of illegal moves (I think I actually was told of my unsuccessful move, but I didn't see the email until the following morning). That said, as I've gone on, I've begun asking questions where I think they're needed and it's helped me avoid foul-ups similar to the one I orchestrated on my first move.

[muon2]

I'll keep monitoring the vote on illegal move notification going forward.

Also, as it stands there is no England for the move due tonight. As before if someone wants to step in to play the turn they are welcome as long as it is before 11:59 pm CDT.

[OBD]

I'll keep monitoring the vote on illegal move notification going forward.

Also, as it stands there is no England for the move due tonight. As before if someone wants to step in to play the turn they are welcome as long as it is before 11:59 pm CDT.

What it's due tonight?

[GeorgiaModerate]

I'll keep monitoring the vote on illegal move notification going forward.

Also, as it stands there is no England for the move due tonight. As before if someone wants to step in to play the turn they are welcome as long as it is before 11:59 pm CDT.

What it's due tonight?

Yep, movement orders are due on the first Friday of every week.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I'm still up and the orders are all in ...

Spring 1902

Austria:
        A bud Supports A tri -> vie
        F gre -> alb
        A ser Holds
        A tri -> vie
     
England:
        No order for unit at London. Hold order assigned.
        F eng -> eng
            No unit in eng
        A edi -> yor
        A hol Supports A bel -> ruh
            Support failed. Supported unit's order does not match support given.
        F lon Holds
        F nth Supports F lon -> eng
            Support failed. Supported unit's order does not match support given.
        F nwy Supports F swe
     
France:
        A bel Holds
        F bre -> eng
        A mar -> bur
        A par -> pic
        F por Holds
        A spa -> mar

Germany:
        F bal Supports A den -> swe
        A den -> swe
            Bounced with swe (2 against 2).
        A kie Holds
        A sil Holds
     
Italy:
        F nap -> tys
        F tun -> wes
        A tus Supports A ven
        A ven Holds

Russia:
        A mos Supports F sev
        F sev Holds
        F swe Supports F nwy
            Support cut by Move from Denmark.
        A ukr Supports F sev
        A vie -> boh
        A war -> sil
            Bounced with sil (1 against 1).
       
Turkey:
        F bla Supports A smy -> arm
        A bul Supports A rum
        A con Supports A bul
        A rum Holds
        A smy -> arm
     


No retreats are needed. This is the position going into Fall 1902. I've added the place names with proper abbreviations so that there should be no confusion.



Fall 1902 moves are due by 11:59 pm CDT on Fri Nov 2.

If I were interested in causing chaos as England:

F Nwy move to Stp (North Coast)
A Hol move to Nwy by convoy via F Nth
F Nth convoy A Hol to Nwy
F Lon support F Nth hold
A Yor move to Wal

But since I'm no longer playing England, these aren't official orders.

[NOVA Green]

I'm still up and the orders are all in ...

Spring 1902

Austria:
        A bud Supports A tri -> vie
        F gre -> alb
        A ser Holds
        A tri -> vie
     
England:
        No order for unit at London. Hold order assigned.
        F eng -> eng
            No unit in eng
        A edi -> yor
        A hol Supports A bel -> ruh
            Support failed. Supported unit's order does not match support given.
        F lon Holds
        F nth Supports F lon -> eng
            Support failed. Supported unit's order does not match support given.
        F nwy Supports F swe
     
France:
        A bel Holds
        F bre -> eng
        A mar -> bur
        A par -> pic
        F por Holds
        A spa -> mar

Germany:
        F bal Supports A den -> swe
        A den -> swe
            Bounced with swe (2 against 2).
        A kie Holds
        A sil Holds
     
Italy:
        F nap -> tys
        F tun -> wes
        A tus Supports A ven
        A ven Holds

Russia:
        A mos Supports F sev
        F sev Holds
        F swe Supports F nwy
            Support cut by Move from Denmark.
        A ukr Supports F sev
        A vie -> boh
        A war -> sil
            Bounced with sil (1 against 1).
       
Turkey:
        F bla Supports A smy -> arm
        A bul Supports A rum
        A con Supports A bul
        A rum Holds
        A smy -> arm
     


No retreats are needed. This is the position going into Fall 1902. I've added the place names with proper abbreviations so that there should be no confusion.



Fall 1902 moves are due by 11:59 pm CDT on Fri Nov 2.

If I were interested in causing chaos as England:

F Nwy move to Stp (North Coast)
A Hol move to Nwy by convoy via F Nth
F Nth convoy A Hol to Nwy
F Lon support F Nth hold
A Yor move to Wal

But since I'm no longer playing England, these aren't official orders.

Hmm... interesting, so English Naval Fleet could move directly from Norway to STP, and not have to move through BAR (*** Frantic searching through Diplomacy 5.0 Rulebook***)...

Been a few decades since I last played the game, but I can see where you were going with all that and deliberate movements, where you were thinking a few years ahead on the Chess Board....

Come on back.... come on home... you know you want to...

It likely would be negative to the interests of the Nation I currently represent, as well as many other Nations, but would happily welcome your return to the Game, even if you destroy France, Germany, and Russia on the path to Global Domination and achieving 18 supply centers, while you carefully destroy all hostile powers to achieve Pax Brittania.

The attempted diversion of French forces from Belgium to the Ruhr, combined with dominating the English Channel, and a wild card up the sleeve to invade Saint Pete, would have created a potential massive English influence in power heading into 1903....

Come on home.....

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Nah, and if I had stayed in the game I'd have used different orders anyway.

F Nwy-Stp NC may be an interesting order but it limits what one can do with that unit to just holding Stp. More useful is F Stp NC-Nwy with support from Swe as part of a Russo-German alliance if Russia builds a fleet on Stp NC.

[muon2]

Fall 1902

Austria:
        F alb -> tri
          Bounced with ser (1 against 1).
        A bud -> gal
        A ser -> tri
          Bounced with alb (1 against 1).
        A vie Supports A bud -> gal
     
England:
          No orders received. All units hold.
        A hol Holds
        F lon Holds
        F nth Holds
        F nwy Holds
        A yor Holds
     
France:
        A bel -> ruh
        A bur Supports A boh -> mun
        F eng -> iri
        A mar -> spa
          Bounced with wes (1 against 1).         
        A pic -> bel
       F por -> mao
     
Germany:
        F bal Supports A den -> swe
        A den -> swe
        A kie -> hol
          Bounced with hol (1 against 1).
        A sil -> mun
          Failed (1 against 2).
       
Italy:
        A tus -> pie
        F tys -> lyo
        A ven Supports A tus -> pie
        F wes -> spa/sc
          Bounced with mar (1 against 1).
       
Russia:
        A boh -> mun
        A mos Supports F sev
        F sev Holds
        F swe -> den
          Bounced with den (1 against 2). Dislodged from den (2 against 1).
        A ukr Supports F sev
        A war -> sil
          Failed because Germany: A sil -> mun failed.
       
Turkey:
        A arm -> sev
          Bounced with sev (3 against 3).
        F bla Supports A arm -> sev
        A bul Supports A rum
        A con Holds
        A rum Supports A arm -> sev
     


The position after the moves is as follows. Germany has an army in swe and the Russian fleet is dislodged.



The retreat order for F swe does not affect the number of Winter 1902 adjustments for any power other than Russia. F swe may retreat to ska, bot, fin, or it may disband. If it disbands then there are no other adjustments for Russia. If swe retreats then one other unit must disband.

The only other power that has an adjustment is Austria which may build one unit. Austria may pm me with that build order or wait for the Russian F swe retreat/disband decision. Winter orders from Russia and Austria will be processed as soon as they are received, but no later than 11:59 pm CST on Sun Nov 4.

[muon2]

Russia disbanded swe and Austria built an army in tri. The position after the Winter 1902 adjustments is this.



Orders for Spring 1903 are due by 11:59 pm CST on Fri Nov 9.

England remains available for a player who wants to take it on. While England remains in civil disorder with no player all units will be ordered to hold. However other players may still support those units to hold as if England was actively played.

[muon2]

Spring 1903

Austria:
        F alb -> ion
        A gal -> ukr
          Bounced with ukr (1 against 1).
        A ser Supports A bul -> rum
        A tri -> alb
        A vie -> tyr

England:
          No orders received. All units hold.
        A hol Holds
        F lon Holds
        F nth Holds
        F nwy Holds
        A yor Holds

France:
        A bel -> hol
          Bounced with hol (2 against 2).        
        A bur Supports A mar
        F iri -> lvp
        A mar Supports F mao-> spa/sc
          Support cut by Move from Piedmont.        
        F mao -> spa/sc
          Bounced with wes (1 against 2).        
        A ruh Supports A bel -> hol    

Germany:
        F bal Supports A kie
        A kie Supports A hol
        A sil -> ber
        A swe -> fin

Italy:
        F lyo Supports F wes -> spa/sc
        A pie -> mar
          Bounced with mar (1 against 2).
        A ven Holds
        F wes -> spa/sc
      
Russia:
          No orders received. All units hold.
        A mos Holds
        A mun Holds
        F sev Holds
          Dislodged from rum (3 against 1). Unit cannot retreat; F sev destroyed
        A ukr Holds
        A war Holds

Turkey:
        A arm Supports A rum-> sev
        F bla Supports A rum -> sev
        A bul -> rum
        A con -> bul
        A rum -> sev  
    


The position after the moves is as follows. No retreats are needed.



Moves for Fall 1903 are due by 11:59 pm CST on Fri Nov 16.

[GeorgiaModerate]

We've now got two powers in CD and it's only 1903.  This is disappointing.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

We've now got two powers in CD and it's only 1903.  This is disappointing.

Is Russia actually out? Either way, it looks like the viable powers are narrowing with each campaign season.

[NOVA Green]

We've now got two powers in CD and it's only 1903.  This is disappointing.

Is Russia actually out? Either way, it looks like the viable powers are narrowing with each campaign season.

Weird thing about Russia is that they PM'd me WEDS evening asking for advice on movements, and said they didn't have much time to invest in the game, so assumed the player was still interested in playing at that time....

It obviously caused some major impacts in the Game, just like the stuff that happened with England.

It's actually a bit of major bummer for me, since I first played this game 30 Years Ago, and haven't played it in decades, and was really hoping to have a proper "Old Skool" style game where negotiations and diplomacy played a major role, without players dropping out etc...

Still NoVA Green isn't going to drop out regardless, but my thought which I threw out there is that if a player resigns there should be an automatic 2-Week "recruitment drive", and if a player does not submit their movements in a given turn, their position will be suspended with a backup player available to take over their Country, hitting a "2 Week" period.

Going forward in future games, my humble suggestion would be keep to the 1-week turnout time frame, but not trigger the game until backups are available. If a player drops out, automatic 2 Week pause unless a player is found prior. If a player neglects to submit any military movements (abandonment), 2-3 day pause to allow for replacement moves from another player to step into the role before the default 5.0 rules kick in...

Thoughts from fellow enthusiasts of the game?

[muon2]

My plan at this point was to have a an extra week for the move that otherwise would land on the day after Thanksgiving. The holiday is busy for most, and I'll be traveling, too. If the existing players wanted an extension to try to recruit new players, then it would require a postponement until Nov 30 for the next move.

[GeorgiaModerate]

In general, I support any steps by the game master to help out the players and try to maintain a full complement of active participants.  Perhaps this isn't really in the cutthroat spirit of Diplomacy, but I think it would make for a more satisfying and fun game for all concerned.

[muon2]

I haven't seen any new players interested, nor a consensus to delay the game, so moves for Fall 1903 are still due tonight. As before, if any of that changes by tonight, you will know here in the thread.

[muon2]

Fall 1903

Austria: Supply centers were lost. Units that must be removed: 1.
        A alb -> nap
          Convoy path taken: alb->ion->nap.
        A gal Supports A sev -> ukr
          Support failed. Supported unit's order does not match support given.
        F ion Convoys A alb > nap
        A ser -> tri
          Bounced with tyr (1 against 1).
        A tyr -> tri
          Bounced with ser (1 against 1).
     
England:
          No orders received. All units hold.
        A hol Holds
          Dislodged from bel (2 against 1).
          The Army in Holland cannot retreat; unit destroyed.
        F lon Holds
        F nth Holds
        F nwy Holds
        A yor Holds
     
France: Supply centers were lost. Units that must be removed: 1.
        A bel -> hol
        A bur Supports A mun
        F lvp -> nao
        A mar -> spa
          Bounced with spa (1 against 1). Dislodged from pie (2 against 1).
        F mao Supports A mar
          Support failed. Move orders must be supported explicitly.
        A ruh Supports A bel -> hol

Germany: Supply centers were gained. Units that may be built: 1.
        F bal -> swe
        A ber -> mun
          Bounced with mun (2 against 2).
        A fin -> stp
        A kie Supports A ber -> mun
     
Italy: Supply centers were gained. Units that may be built: 1.
        F lyo Supports A pie -> mar
        A pie -> mar
        F spa/sc Holds
        A ven Holds
     
Russia: Supply centers were lost. Units that must be removed: 1.
          No orders received. All units hold.
        A mos Holds
        A mun Holds
        A ukr Holds
        A war Holds

Turkey: Supply centers were gained. Units that may be built: 3.
        A arm -> sev
        F bla Supports A arm -> sev
        A bul -> gre
        A rum -> bud
        A sev -> rum
     


After movement the position is as follows.



Winter adjustments are shown in the orders.

France must either retreat the Army in mar to gas or disband it. If the army is disbanded then no other adjustment is made. If it is retreated then a unit must be disbanded.

Germany is entitled to a build, but has no unoccupied home supply center to build in. Germany must begin 1904 short one unit.

Russia must disband a unit. If no new player claims Russia before all adjustments are turned in by current players, the rules require that the unit farthest from Russia (mun) will be disbanded.

Winter 1903 adjustments are due by Sun 11:59 pm CST, but will be executed as soon as all orders are in.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Readjustments in?

[muon2]

The following adjustments were made for 1903.

Austria: disband A nap
France: disband F nao
Italy: no adjustments received
Russia: civil disorder, disband A mun
Turkey: build A ank, F con, F smy



Orders for Spring 1904 are due Fri Nov 30 at 11:59 CST.

[muon2]

Spring 1904

Austria:
        A gal -> bud
          Bounced with bud (1 against 1).
        F ion Supports A ser > gre
        A ser -> gre
          Bounced with gre (2 against 2).
        A tyr -> tri
     
England:
          No orders received. All units hold.
        F lon Holds
        F nth Holds
        F nwy Holds
        A yor Holds

France:
        A bur Supports A gas-> mar
        A gas -> mar
          Bounced with mar (2 against 2).
        A hol -> kie
        F mao -> por
        A ruh -> mun
          Bounced with kie (1 against 2).
   
Germany:
        A ber Supports A kie -> mun
        A kie -> mun
        A stp -> lvn
        F swe -> den
     
Italy:
        F lyo Supports F spa/sc
        A mar Holds
        F spa/sc Supports A mar
        A ven Holds

Russia:
          No orders received. All units hold.
        A mos Holds
        A ukr Holds
        A war Holds

Turkey:
        A ank -> bul
          Convoy path taken: ank->bla->bul.
        F bla Convoys A ank -> bul
        A bud Supports A gre -> ser
          Support cut by Move from gal.
        F con -> aeg
        A gre -> ser
          Bounced with ser (2 against 2).
        A rum Supports A gre -> ser
        A sev Supports A rum
        F smy -> eas
    


No retreats are needed. After movement the position is as follows.



Orders for Fall 1904 are due Fri Dec 7 at 11:59 pm CST.

[muon2]

Fall 1904
Two units are dislodged and must either retreat or disband. Those actions won't affect the number of supply centers held by any power, but could affect how and where a power may build. If there are questions about the form or effect of dislodging during a build, please pm me. Germany and Turkey, please directly post your orders for dislodged units to expedite the build phase. Otherwise please send build orders by 11:59 pm CST Sun Dec 9.

Austria: 5 supply centers, 4 units. Units that may be built: 1 - no unoccupied center for a build.
        A gal -> vie
        F ion -> tun
        A ser -> bud
        A tri Supports A ser -> bud
     
England: 4 supply centers, 4 units. No adjustments.
          No orders received. All units hold.
        F lon Holds
        F nth Holds
        F nwy Holds
        A yor Holds   
   
France: 6 supply centers, 5 units. Units that may be built: 1.
        A bur Supports A kie -> mun
        A gas Supports F por -> spa/sc
        A kie -> mun
        F por -> spa/sc
          Bounced with spa (2 against 2).
        A ruh Supports A kie -> mun
     
Germany: 1 unit dislodged. 5 supply centers, 4 units. Units that may be built: 1.
        A ber -> kie
        F den Supports A ber -> kie
        A lvn -> pru
        A mun -> ruh
          Bounced with ruh (1 against 1). Dislodged from kie (3 against 1).
       
Italy: 4 supply centers, 4 units. No adjustments.
        F lyo Supports F spa/sc
        A mar Holds
        Italy: F spa/sc Supports A mar
          Support cut by Move from Portugal.
        A ven Holds
   
Russia: 2 supply centers, 3 units. Units that must be removed: 1 - A ukr will disband.
          No orders received. All units hold.
        A mos Holds
        A ukr Holds
        A war Holds
   
Turkey: 1 unit dislodged. 8 supply centers, 8 units. No adjustments.
        F aeg Supports F eas -> ion
        F bla Supports A sev -> rum
        A bud -> tri
          Bounced with tri (1 against 1). Dislodged from ser (2 against 1).
        A bul Supports A rum -> ser
        F eas -> ion
        A gre Supports A rum -> ser
        A rum -> ser
        A sev -> rum
     


This is the position before retreats and adjustments.


 

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Retreat:
A Mun to Sil

[GeorgiaModerate]

Retreat: Bud-Gal